<p>Georges Lemaitre.</p>
<p>This thread truly disgusts me. the value of MY education is that it taught me to understand the merits of a pluralistic society where religious people are looked upon with respect and not condescension as personified in the OP. if you ask me, i think such stubborn closed-mindedness is as much a quality of an uneducated person as is “superstition.” i’m not a religious person and even i think POIH needs to step off and get over himself.</p>
<p>I wanted to get off this thread but the ignorance of so many people in the country supposed to be leading the way into 21st century brought me back.</p>
<p>There is something really need to be done with the education system. It seems we are unable to teach children to distinguish between logical reasoning and superstitions. So when these children become adults the problem remain.</p>
<p>Still let’s logically analyze question at hand. Reiterating that I asked the question because</p>
<ul>
<li>What this girl will do if fall sick on such a day? Will her family refuse modern equipments because it will be against the superstitious beliefs?</li>
<li>If she becomes a doctor; will she refuse servicing on certain days even if the patient is in critical situation?</li>
</ul>
<p>Please ask question before bashing OP.</p>
<p>Can someone enlighten me about the purpose of education?</p>
<p>Do we want the children to learn and make their mind think about right and wrong?
Or
Is the purpose of education to teach some text books written by some one without even asking children to question the superstitions?</p>
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<p>I’m not slave to a belief system or superstitions so it’s relatively easy for me to go and survive at any place. Problem is with the people who are slave to belief system that suppress logical thinking or reasoning. Such people would find it difficult to survive without a critical mass of like minded superstitious people.</p>
<p>I don’t mind eating any meat ( chicken, beef, pork, fish) or how it’s cut kosher or non kosher or what day of the week it’s cooked on. I’ll eat with a person of any belief and at a house of a person of any belief.</p>
<p>I can bet that many of the people who got offended actually will have difficulty eating at some one else place or even with them. But they would gladly join hands together to bash on this thread.</p>
<p>People who are slave to a belief system without any basis are the ones that have difficulty accepting others.</p>
<p>
I don’t really have any questions to ask.</p>
<p>bovertine: You need to ask question to yourself and your belief system before bashing this thread.</p>
<p>“What this girl will do if fall sick on such a day? Will her family refuse modern equipments because it will be against the superstitious beliefs?”</p>
<p>No. Judaism has a doctrine called “pikuah nefesh” = Saving a life. It says that the mandate to save lives overrides almost all other Jewish laws. It definitely overrides the laws of shabbat and holidays. It is interpretated broadly, to apply to all needed medical care, not only that which is directly life saving. </p>
<p>“- If she becomes a doctor; will she refuse servicing on certain days even if the patient is in critical situation?”</p>
<p>No. While shabbat observant Jewish doctors schedule their days on call on days that are not shabbot or a jewish holiday, they will of course provide service if it is medically necessary that they do so. </p>
<p>There is actually an interesting discussion that has come up about applying this in Israel. In the diaspora, it can usually be assumed that the doctor (or emt, or air traffic controller, or whatever) who takes the place of an observant Jew is a gentile - who is not obligated by these laws. In Israel, most of the time, the person is a non-observant Jew, whom the observant should NOT be encouraging to violate shabbat. At least one prominent Orthodox thinker has suggested that Jewish law be changed in Israel to allow observant Jews to perform emergency services on shabbat, even when a substitute can be found, to avoid the situation of an observant elite relying on the non-observant to make their observance possible.</p>
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The only honorable way for you to exit this thread is to make a sincere apology to those whose religions you have offended by equating their beliefs to superstitions, and those who believe that education should result in a respect for the beliefs of others. Then you might want to think about begging the mods to lock it and even delete it. It’s hard for me to fathom that an educated person could post what you have here.</p>
<p>I’m a lapsed Catholic and could not in any way be considered religious. But I can recognize that Karol Woytyla was a brilliant man whose intellect did not preclude his religious faith.</p>
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<p>Exactly. POIH seems to think that this student didn’t want to drive or use electronic devices due to some superstition of what may happen if she does these things. But if POIH had informed himself, he would find out that the student was following Orthodox laws in how the holiday is to be observed. It doesn’t mean POIH should agree with such beliefs but should have the capacity (and education and “liberal” thinking skills) to understand that she was following her religious observances of the holiday and not out of fear of what may befall her if she drives a car, etc. POIH comes across as the one without knowledge, education, or liberal thought.</p>
<p>“People who are slave to a belief system without any basis are the ones that have difficulty accepting others”</p>
<p>if you havent studied Judaism how do you know what the basis is or isnt? and if you think its possible to learn the basis for 2000 year old way of life in an internet message board, why do you hope for your child to attend an Ivy League school, where learning IN DEPTH is valued? </p>
<p>Do you realize you are personifying everything ignorant and illiberal?</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad: So is it correct to infer from your #127 that such a society won’t be functional without the help of “gentile”?</p>
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Oh, thanks. I need to fully understand the rules for posting.</p>
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<p>I’m not sure where I’ve offended anyone religious beliefs. I’ve only raised questions about the education system and it’s role in educating young children minds to distinguish between reasoning and superstitions.</p>
<p>People who get offended by unrelated things need to question themselves.</p>
<p>one of the problems Judaism and other religious traditions have, is that deep, sophisticated views expressed by great thinkers, get passed down, and simplified, and misunderstood, to the point where they DO become superstitions, among the ignorant masses. You go from the sublimity of the Rambam to the superstion of an hassid (Im sorry, but especially the women, who often dont know the sources well at all) who fears specific bad fortunes from failing to strictly observe a halacha, or even a minhag. </p>
<p>Why should we be surprised when the same thing occurs on the secular side? Folks like Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris have made an industry of being obnoxious to religious people. While I dont like their style, and find their argumentation weak (I saw a debate they had with R Brad Artson, where they were basically frustrated that poor Brad was arguing process theology, and wasnt defending fundamentalist christianity) I do recognize they are intelligent, well informed people. They have, however, bred a bunch of “hitchens wannabes” who try to imitate them, but with much less knowledge, and, I am sorry, less intelligence.</p>
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<p>I can’t answer this with personal knowledge, but I am sure there are physicians out there who refuse to work on certain days, and their employers honor their request. These physicians would never do so unless they have pre-arranged and pre-agreed upon backup plans. </p>
<p>I will report on the hospice organization that, in the role of a chaplain, I have worked at, where rabbis were my co-workers. When they were hired, it was with full understanding that they would never be available for work on their Sabbath or high holy days. And the agencies I was with, as their employers, hired them with this knowledge. In an environment where chaplains are on call 24 hours a day, just as other medical professionals are, this meant they would not take on-call shifts on their Sabbath, and the other chaplains had to split up Friday nights/Saturdays. It actually worked out rather nicely as we always covered their holy days/Sabbath, but they were always willing to cover the Christian holidays so we could have off and be with our families. </p>
<p>I won’t regurgitate what others on here have identified as an American culture that, for the most part, honors and respects the freedom to practice one’s faith, but until you accept that this is the reality here in the U.S., you will be repeatedly be disappointed and dismayed with our educational system.</p>
<p>POIH – I’m sure nothing I say will get thru to you, but the fact of the matter is that this country legally recognizes an individual’s right to pursue their religion – and in fact some of the situations you’ve raised would in fact probably be illegal to prohibit - eg. employers have a legal obligation to reasonably accommodate an employee’s religious practices. it’s not always easy to define what the nature of that protection means in practice (it keeps lawyers and courts busy fleshing it out), but by your standards, the entire country must be ignorant since it values and respects religious beliefs and practices.</p>
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<p>[Civil</a> Rights Division Special Counsel for Religious Discrimination Page](<a href=“http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/religiousdiscrimination/religionpamp.php]Civil”>http://www.justice.gov/crt/spec_topics/religiousdiscrimination/religionpamp.php)</p>
<p>If it is someone’s knee jerk reaction to label something they either don’t understand or don’t agree with ignorant, uneducated or superstitious, I think the problem of ignorance or lack of education is much closer to that person than they can see.</p>
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<p>Pikuach nefesh indicates that the laws of halacha (Jewish law) can be broken – indeed, must be broken – to save a life. Therefore, there would not be any issue with her seeking out medical attention, even if it involved breaking the Sabbath. I don’t believe I can link to wikipedia here, but you might want to check the wikipedia article. </p>
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<p>Were you not around during the 2000 election (Gore/Lieberman) in which Lieberman’s personal religious obligations (Lieberman is a Modern Orthodox Jew) came up?</p>
<p>The term for observing the Sabbath in the way that this young lady does is being Shomer Shabbos. Some hospitals – mostly in NYC – allow Shomer Shabbat residency programs, whereby the medical resident works the same X number of hours, but not on Saturdays or on Jewish holidays. As for private practice – a doctor in private practice can set her own hours as she sees fit. My H and his medical partner are both (secular) Jews who close the office for Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur. What’s the essential difference? A doctor who is in an on-call specialty simply has to work out coverage just like anyone else does. </p>
<p>Between you, me and the wall? Yeah, I think a lot of this is silly and that if there is a God, he / she / it doesn’t much care about any of this, much less whether I eat a ham sandwich. However, the great thing is that in this country, people who feel this way are able to practice their beliefs, as long as it doesn’t hurt or impact anyone else. In this case, it didn’t impact anyone else. The young lady was willing to give up the honor of speaking; the school decided to make it a win-win and come up with a creative solution that allowed her both to honor her religious beliefs and to receive the honor her school wished her to receive. Thinking up win-win solutions in cases of conflict is PRECISELY the reason to seek out education. </p>
<p>You’d have a point if she threw a hissy fit and demanded that the school move the graduation to a different day. Or if she demanded that no one else at the school use electricity on the Sabbath. Or if she demanded that everyone dress modestly (covering knees and elbows) as she does. But you have no such point.</p>
<p>I am quite sure your D will encounter Orthodox Jews at MIT if she hasn’t already, and I am sure they have a Hillel and a Chabad as well as numerous Jewish student groups and kosher dining facilities.</p>
<p>"Brooklynborndad: So is it correct to infer from your #127 that such a society won’t be functional without the help of “gentile”? "</p>
<p>In fact Israel IS functional, and even in towns that have no gentile medical professionals, etc. It is, because so many Israeli Jews are NOT observant. To the Orthodox thinker I have in mind, that is a religiously unacceptable situation. There is no practical issue. There might be, if ALL or almost all Israeli Jews were observant. At the moment, in 2011, that is an academic question.</p>
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<p>Religious beliefs are not subject to proof and logic. People can be educated and use logic and reasoning in aspects of their lives while at the same time adhering to their faiths and beliefs. One doesn’t preclude the other. If you opt to not adhere to any faiths, that is totally OK. But those who do follow a religion are not devoid of reason and logic in their lives. Their religious faith is a part of their lives as another layer. </p>
<p>Also, POIH, you talk about the importance of education which I believe you value (as I and many on this thread and forum do), but part of education is learning about a world view and the many religions and people that make up the world. “Liberal” people tend to be tolerant of different points of view and faiths. You come across as uneducated in not having a knowledge of these faiths, as well as close minded (not liberal) in tolerance of views other than that which you hold. People here are tolerant that you opt to not follow any religion (I think you said this) and likewise, you should be liberal in your thought to tolerate others’ belief systems. Their beliefs don’t have to have logic and reason.</p>
<p>BTW for those who keep referring to the Ivies per POIH’s username - his daughter is at MIT, which as you will realize from other threads, is the most superlative school on the entire planet for practically everything, calorie-free chocolate flows from the water fountains, every interaction / conversation is brilliant, and no one there ever has a bad hair day. Even curly-headed Jewish girls :-)</p>