<p>Claysoul, again, put so well. My son (13 at the time) pointed to a Hummer last year and said, “Mom, why can’t we get one of those? They’re so COOL!” to which I replied, “Because we could pay for two years at Yale with that money, and I guarantee you those folks driving that aren’t thinking in those terms.” So be it.</p>
<p>I worked my way through college, working graveyard shift. I played for the local clubside at my college (they practiced at 7, the college side 3… I was asleep at 3) I then played for a Seattle area side for a while. I don’t want to give too much away as I have a crazy right now pming me with some werid stuff. I don’t want to give that person too much.</p>
<p>Mostly 2nd row because of size. A very educational sport. I was able to travel to the UK and Ireland back inthe day and sit and drink with the welsh communist party leader. He was the village we played scrum half and they let him out of jail for the game. He was imprisoned for being a leader of their coal miners strike back inthe 80’s. But, I mean his villiage’s pride was at stake, can’t miss the match. </p>
<p>Then went to Ireland and stayed in a cattle “barron’s” home (400 head, by irish standards doing great, here a small farmer). Stayed on the family castle estate of the national team coach as well. Got to sleep in the servants quarters. Also spent the night billeted at a pub. Great time. </p>
<p>The game can give you great experiences and you’ll never be a stranger just about anywhere in the world. </p>
<p>My S took up the game in med school recently. Got his first try in his first full game. He’s played some fullback, inside center and seems to have settled on flanker cause he can tackle well. He’s about 6 foot and 180, fast, very fast.
Learning the game while learning to be a doctor. He’s looking forward to spring where he might go to NOleans for a tourney… </p>
<p>Good for you guys for playing. Activities are a big part of college, make sure you enjoy yourslef as best you can.</p>
<p>I met Tony Brown when I met with the Crew coach. He wants to share me, ha.</p>
<p>haha, good call Mlev. Tell him he’s a jerk face, would you?? (He wrote some mean and unwarranted things about Brown on a blog. Vassar is kind of our big rival. Vassar and Army). (And oh MAN was he mad (“more than gutted”) when I chose Brown over Vassar. lol) </p>
<p>Opie – yeah, I played in high school, along with wrestling and football (the latter two boys teams), and did some stuff with the u19 National Eagles Team. I transferred in part because of it – and it seems like I picked the right school cuz we’re number oooooonnneeeeee!!! 
</p>
<p>I just love it love it love it. I was legitimately put on this earth to tackle people.</p>
<p>dke – right on, yo. right on.</p>
<p>Clay; I think that the big difference in our opinions, is that you believe there is something extremely special about the top 50 schools, and somehow is worth the $45,000-$50,000 a year to go to. I don’t. With the exception of a couple of career choices, which I’ve already mentioned, I don’t think there is a big advantage of going to Harvard over U of Wherever and accruing the debt that comes with it. When it comes to a B.S./B.A. degree, going to the Top 50 mean very little. So, if you want to spend $200,000 to go to college instead of $60,000 then go for it. Even with merit scholarships and certain other scholarships and aid, you’re looking at $100,000 compared to $30,000. Again, if you think it’s worth the debt, then pay it. I won’t. </p>
<p>I’ll pay the U of Wherever price TOWARDS the higher end school if the kids got into those schools and were able to get scholarships and such to make up the difference. Matter of fact, that is exactly the situation my son is in now. He has been accepted to a couple of the top 25 schools. Between merit and other scholarships, plus what I would contribute towards the State U, he would have just a $10,000 loan per year. If he wants to take on that $40,000 debt after graduation, then fine. Believe what you want, we all have opinions. Mine is that my and my wife’s standard of living, recreation, luxuries, etc… don’t revolve around my child’s college education. I do believe in helping; or in my case because I can definitely afford it, pay for their entire college. That includes tuition, books, dorm, food, spending money, etc… That just doesn’t mean it has to be harvard, yale, etc…</p>
<p>But, as I mentioned much earlier in this thread, I am one of the fortunate ones. Even though I can afford it, my son has been offered 3 full rides to school and a 50% ride. My daughter, now a junior in college, has enough scholarships and took a position as an RA, so my contribution for her education is only about $3000 a year. That includes giving her spending money. This is the key. Any student who cares enough about college, and didn’t wait until their junior or senior year in HS to start taking challenging classes and worrying about their grades, can get a lot of great scholarships and grants depending on the school. But I still don’t believe that DOLLAR for DOLLAR that paying $200,000 towards a top 50 school is financially worth it compared to a $60,000 University of Wherever school.</p>
<p>"Opie – yeah, I played in high school, along with wrestling and football (the latter two boys teams), and did some stuff with the u19 National Eagles Team. I transferred in part because of it – and it seems like I picked the right school cuz we’re number oooooonnneeeeee!!! </p>
<p>I just love it love it love it. I was legitimately put on this earth to tackle people."</p>
<p>Good for you kid. For me, It was pure pleasure, the purest sport. I don’t know about you, but post match was so relaxing. Gave my all for the match and the all prior week’s hassles and mean people were gone. Shook my opposite’s hand and depending on who was home team, either bought or enjoyed dinner together at the drink up… I do miss that feeling more each year… I get to live vicariously though my kid now. I hope to fly in and catch a match this spring.</p>
<p>
Christcorp, you continue to reference your son’s great acceptances and scholarships. I have absolutely no problem with that. 
I’d be the pot calling the kettle black. But it may be giving others the wrong impression - that these full-rides/half-rides are to Top 25 schools or that maybe they are easier to get than you and I both know they are even at schools well outside the Top 25.</p>
<p>I think it’s appropriate if you mention the schools that you are talking about with the full rides, and those top 25 schools where merit aid and your contribution left your son with only a $10K loan. </p>
<p>In addition, I think the last quote I cited seems to suggest that the genius got scholarships from Ivy and West Coast Ivy (Stanford I presume?) when I think you know that no institutionally granted merit scholarships are available. </p>
<p>I just don’t want folks to get the impression that it would be easy for a kid to get by with limited parental funds at most of our Top ranked schools (Other than the AFAcademy). Congratulations to your son on his great results so far.</p>
<p>And I’m not dinging you, I’m just trying to keep everybody straight. No one needs to count on a full-ride or major $ scholarship at a top school. No matter what their stats. Try for it but don’t count on it.</p>
<p>ClaySoul, I happen to agree with you that as a parent, my child’s education is of primary importance to me. But that’s my choice and my value system, and I will not judge someone who has a different value system. Some parents want their sons to be the quarterback or at least on varsity, and will spend tons of money and support so that the kid can do just that. My family couldn’t care less about football, or any other sport for that matter. But that’s us. I know a lot of families that do not value academics as much as we do. I think they’re wrong. But it’s my culture, my family and my values. Not having thos values does not make one a terrible person, just a different one.</p>
<p>“When it comes to a B.S./B.A. degree, going to the Top 50 mean very little.”</p>
<p>Christcorp, with all due respect, I realize this issue has been discussed ad nauseam, but your statement simply isn’t true at many companies/firms. I can cite numerous examples of CEOs I personally know who in many instances hire individuals for senior management that have prestigious college pedigrees (undergrad as well as grad) because they believe it enhances the corporate resume. Google was notorious for the practice, including recent graduates sans experience. Only Harvard, Caltech, MIT, Yale, Stanford, et cetera alums need apply. </p>
<p>A COO informed a friend of mine he was hired over other candidates because of his MIT degree. It should be pointed out, his degree didn’t facilitate the initial interview, experience did.</p>
<p>My wife has had similar experiences.</p>
<p>The resumes of Oak Investment Partners might interest you. The list of alma maters isn’t an accident. I’ll confess eastern snobbery can play more than an insignificant role in hiring and promotion practices. But the fact remains, those graduating from the top colleges and universities are often at an advantage re employment and or being recruited, all other things being equal.</p>
<p>[Oak</a> Investment Partners: About Oak](<a href=“http://www.oakinv.com/westport.asp]Oak”>http://www.oakinv.com/westport.asp)</p>
<p>Full disclosure: I’m able to afford to send my daughter to a top college and do so gladly. Does this cloud my view? Possibly. An argument could be presented I’m attempting to justify the expense. I’m more than willing to accept that hypothesis. However, my daughter worked very hard to get where she is and never asked for or expected anything be handed to her. She gladly offered to accept admission to a college (safety) that offered a significant merit award if I believed limiting educational expenses was important. The college wasn’t a fit but the thought and willingness to attend a second tier college for my benefit was heartwarming. Consequently, I had no intention of not helping facilitate her attending at top LAC she loved because, as many others and I believe, it will a give her an easier trajectory to grad school or a coveted job. In my opinion not supporting a wonderful, kind and thoughtful child both monetarily and psychologically to fullest of my ability is both selfish and immoral.</p>
<p>Chriscorp</p>
<p>“Clay; I think that the big difference in our opinions, is that you believe there is something extremely special about the top 50 schools”</p>
<p>I think that the EXPERIENCE you get at top 50 schools (or rather, whatever school is the RIGHT school for you) is something extremely special, and worth the money. There is just no way I would be getting the same experience I am getting here at Brown (or even that I got at Tulane before I transferred) that I would at my local Oregon State or U Oregon. The latter two are big university style curriculum schools vs two small liberal arts curriculum schools. That’s hugely different.</p>
<p>curmudgeon; the schools that you quote me posting are the ones my son is considering. He has been accepted to a couple of other schools. Those however would require a lot more investment. As far as the Top 25-50, according to USWN, that all depends on the category. Seems like they break them down into different disciplines. Sorry I didn’t list every school he applied to or that has shown interest in him.</p>
<p>ClaySoul however has made the perfect point again. That being the RIGHT school. I’ve already said that if Harvard, Cornell, or wherever is the school that can help you the most with your career choice, then you should go for it. That doesn’t mean that your parents need to be the ones who have to mortgage their future or standard of living to do it. Especially if you realize that there isn’t a “Better” experience going to those schools. Just a different experience.</p>
<p>Remember, this thread is about parents paying or as originally stated; not paying for their kids college education. Believe what you want, but many parents on this forum, including myself, paid their own way through college. It probably made us more prepared, especially financially, for the future. Parents paying their kid’s way through college is not a “RIGHT”. It’s a gift. It is totally up to the parent to decide whether the child “DESERVES” it. [Many Don’t] Whether they can appreciate it or will use it as a way to waste 4 years of their lives. Yes, they may walk out with a degree, but so what. There are plenty of kids who go to college, pass, yet spend most of the time partying and whatever. If that’s the case, they could have done that at State U. Why waste a could hundred grand on that.</p>
<p>No child automatically is entitled to their parents paying their way to college. Especially a fifty grand plus a year college. That is where we will have to agree to disagree. Because my kids were willing to work hard in high school, apply and get multiple scholarships, and in my eyes they have earned the privilege to go to college, I am more than willing to help. Because of that, they are able to go to many different schools. Including some that I didn’t list. My kids however have not only earned this privilege, they have demonstrated appreciation and maturity by realizing that they don’t have to go to schools like USC, Willamette, Tufts, and others. They don’t want me and their mom to spend an outrageous amount of money on these schools. Yes, it is great that they have/had these choices. And had more scholarship money been available, then maybe they would have attended one of the other schools. </p>
<p>But, the respect I have for my kids as young adults now who know the value of a dollar. Who know when something isn’t worth the extra money. Who can make mature decision on their own. Who appreciate working and earning something on their own instead of it being given to them; I know that both of them will do well.</p>
<p>P.S. Yes, the mega student at my kid’s school did get 2 full offers by organizations that reviewed her applications, essays, and career plans. One was to Stanford and the other to Princeton. These were indeed private scholarships, but they are also available. School scholarships aren’t the only ones available.</p>
<p>I have the same point of view as ClaySoul. I am not investing in my children’s increased vocational opportunities. It may be that those are not significant. I am investing in their current experiences and the life and person shaping nature of them.</p>
<p>I do not believe that D could have the experiences she is having anywhere but NYC, and as a strong but feminine feminist I can’t imagine an environment that would support here more than Barnard.</p>
<p>It’s too soon for me to tell exactly what S will gain from being at Williams, but I am sure it will be substantial.</p>
<p>Is this necessary? In no way. They could receive an education that would provide them access to the next stage in their lives at SUNY Stony Brook, the school just down the road. They good even live and home and go to the Honors College for no tuition. They would qualify.</p>
<p>I have no way of calculating what would be lost, but I am sure they would emerge much different people. It’s up to each set of parents to decide what this difference is worth.</p>
<p>I have no uneasiness about my choice, even if neither ends up with especially lucrative or prestigious careers. And yes, it is an extreme economic sacrifice and I am not making them take loans. </p>
<p>It’s really hard to accomplish, but I feel it’s worth it. I also felt it was worth it to climb Slide Mountain, the tallest mountain in the Catskills, even though I have severe asthma that was not well controlled in the bad old days before inhaled steroids. I am very fortunate I survived such overuse of my rescue inhaler, but I was young and foolish. Still, I still have those memories of climbing that mountain, and I would probably do it again, foolishness and all.</p>
<p>Erewhon; If you read through some of my other posts, you will see that I did say that depending on your field, some schools like MIT, Caltech NJIT, and others would indeed be beneficial. But if you are NOT getting into the biochem, EE, Nuc, and other type fields; and you are going for some degree in business, accounting, arch, and other general studies, then no; a top 50 college isn’t worth the money because it doesn’t have any real added benefit.</p>
<p>Christcorp: I agree with some of your points. I am much more willing to sacrifice because my kids worked so hard in high school and are people I respect. I would not be as dedicated to their educations if they were not also. Each is performing to his/her capacity though neither is as obsessively academic as I was/am. I don’t expect them to be; they have no desire to have the PhD I have, but both want to go to professional school.</p>
<p>If either started partying, slacking off and not making use of their environments I might say s/he had to come home to attend SUNY.</p>
<p>D has been incredibly responsible in earning all her spending money working. In NYC, this expense would be substantial for me. She has emphatically stated that she wouldn’t want me to contribute to her seeing a movie or eating sushi out, they we’ve given enough. She also tries to fund her text books. She’s a really good girl. Sometimes she even treats the family with her earnings.</p>
<p>S has just turned eighteen and has some catching up to do in this department. He has been so focused on practicing his instruments that earning money has not been a high priority. I am working on this with him because I also think it is important to learn that one must pay one’s own way.</p>
<p>By getting into very competitive need-blind schools at which they qualified for FA I feel they did earn “merit” scholarships, even though they are not billed that way.</p>
<p>I would definitely choose a public over a mediocre private where I had to pay full-freight.</p>
<p>However, these kids are a pleasure to help. Helping kids research merit aid and merit aid institutions and supporting them in completing that paper work to earn sizable merit scholarships is another way to go to help kids realize their dreams. Curm reflects this in his posts and his daughter’s results are awesome. </p>
<p>So, even though we seem to be saying opposite things, I actually agree with many of your ideas.</p>
<p>In an ideal world it is more construction when kids earn their educations. They can do this by earning money, earning merit scholarships or earning a place in an institution with wonderful FA. Or two or even three of the above.</p>
<p>In an ideal world parents would also help to the point that it wouldn’t destroy their future qualify of life or their children’s resourcefulness.</p>
<p>Hey, Mythmom, we agree on something here! Your point about if your student partied and didn’t fully appreciate what they had brings to mind a neighbor that we had “up north”. He was first generation college (Princeton) and knew the value of it. His son was a freshman at Vanderbilt and was goofing off quite a bit. The father told him that he wasn’t paying for him to party, and that he needed to leave for awhile. The kid went to Colorado, skiied and waitered for a year, and saw what real life was like. He happily returned to Vanderbilt the next year and did incredibly well. It must have been SO hard for that father to make that choice. I’ve always admired him for it.</p>
<p>dke: I’m soooo glad because I think polarization is just unfortunate. Look on the other thread we’ve also been differing on. I have tried to find some middle ground there, too.</p>
<p>I would do this in a heartbeat because I wouldn’t want my child wasting an opportunity; the money wouldn’t motivate me, just the loss for the kid.</p>
<p>The best interests of a young person would not include allowing him/her to throw away opportunities or develop into a self-indulgent incompetent adult.</p>
<p>It’s still my job to provide the framework and support for my kids to be self-supporting constructive adults, and I do take that job seriously.</p>
<p>I also have this as my real job with my community college students and it can be really difficult to insist a kid with really good excuses live up to the work outlined by the course syllabus. I often want to say, “That’s okay. You can still get your grade without doing the paper,” but I don’t let myself. I will give those who don’t complete the work a W instead of an F though. College, especially community college, should be a learning experience in my view.</p>
<p>Mythmom, we had some of my husband’s freshman year roommates from his Ivy come visit for the weekend, and talked about this very thing. One of them was bragging about how much he goofed off and I told him that he was so incredibly fortunate to be there and how could he have squandered the opportunity like that? I guess I hit a nerve, because he was pretty peeved at me that night. Turns out his son was at his alma mater, behaved the same way, and now has graduated, is living at home and not currently employed. I just don’t get it.</p>
<p>A couple points:</p>
<p>I don’t think (correct me if I’m wrong) college cost 45k+ in the day of most of the parents on this board, so working through Harvard today? Nearly impossible. Nearly. </p>
<p>Also, there are not ALL that many independent scholarships out there? I looked. A lot depends on your race, gender, major, where you live. And at many schools, any money you earn from an independent scholarship comes right out of your need based grant, dollar for dollar. So unless you can get MORE than your need based grant AND loans in scholarships, you really only get any benefit if they reduce your loans and that still doesn’t help your parents one bit.</p>
<p>Clay: I will go back to salary and pay then and now. $7,000 was a bucket of cash when minimum wage was $1.25-1.65 an hour and the graduated tax rate was started lower (average salary with a BA was in the single digits or low double digits). The math is very easy: if your take home pay after FIT and FICA is $1 how many hours do you have to work for $4,000 or $7,000. (please note that a full time job 40 hrs per week 52 weeks a year is 2080hrs)</p>
<p>I hope this clarifies the situation that us oldsters who went to college in the 70s were facing. Many of us struggled to pay instate tuition, working 20-40 hrs a week while carrying a 16-18cr courseload. During the summer, I often had two full time jobs and waitressed on Friday and Saturday nights.</p>