H works in geriatrics. This is a constant issue, many stories. . . What if the demented woman’s H decided that since it would be inappropriate for him to have sex with his wife in the nursing home, and he no longer finds his wife attractive due to her illness (and she may be unlikely to consent, may protest if he approached her this way), he has an affair with her best friend? Everyone knows about it except the demented wife. (couple in 80s)The family is OK with it because their dad was always on the make and just “couldn’t live” without sex for more than a couple days. So how would you feel if you were their adult children? What if you were a doctor being asked for viagra so the guy can be unfaithful to his wife?
My mom is in a nursing home. Can’t imagine my dad acting like this, though he visits her daily. (Mom is not demented, but she has had strokes.Sounds like she is much more with it than the wife in this case.But I think it would be inappropriate for dad to have sex with her.)
What would you want your spouse to do if you were in this situation? I’d want my H to just forget about it and make the personal sacrifice. (Which is what most people do. Most people do not have a problem with this. But the ones who do get a lot of attention. . .) IMO, having sex in public (yes, her room, but with a roommate who can’t leave and staff that could walk in any time. . .) is uncivilized and gross. Just not done. I think it shows a lack of respect for roommate/staff and lack of self control/dignity. There is a time and place for everything. That time has passed, and a nursing home is not the place. (Go home and DIY, if you must. . .)
Also, regarding the nursing home reporting to the state, nursing homes are constantly being monitored/inspected/evaluated. Is it possible that the director has had an experience (and not necessarily in this particular facility) with getting into trouble for NOT reporting something, and that makes it likely that EVERYTHING that could possibly be an issue will be reported? It sounds like the staff were just doing as they were instructed.
Hunt: I can imagine some individuals, already in abusive relationships, being pressured by spouses to sign the consent to sex advanced directive. Are you concerned about this possibility?
Do you think that the directive would be enforceable as the law is now? Maybe that doesn’t matter. Surrogacy contracts aren’t enforceable in some provisions, yet people sign them anyway.
I’m assuming that people who object to the Rayhons prosecution as an unjustifiable intrusion into the marital relationship would nevertheless agree that there are cases where a spouse ought to be prosecuted for sex with a spouse with dementia or other mental disability. How out of it would the spouse have to be before you’d prosecute? Would you say it’s OK as long as the spouse doesn’t seem to object, and has any level of consciousness at all?
That’s why we need clear defaults and a clear understanding of how medical professionals, family members and care facilities should regard these situations.
One could say that any consent to sex advanced directive is overruled by explicit non-consent at the time. Then again, for people who believe that “No means no” and absence of non-consent is consent, that would make the advance directive a nullity.
I recognize this possibility, but I don’t see how it’s different from any other advance directive, including wills.
I guess I do agree with this, but I think that prosecuting him for felony rape is probably a serious tactical error. Unless the facts are particularly egregious, the jury is likely to acquit, and then what has the prosecution accomplished?
I agree with many posters here that, in most cases, we can count on healthy spouses to have their non-healthy spouses best interests at heart and to take the best care of them possible under difficult circumstances. Elder abuse will probably not be a very common occurrence. However, it seems to me to be very important to protect those at risk, even when they are a minority of patients.
adding: Sometimes circumstances which may seem inconceivable (elder abuse) become very real if one becomes aware of an incident and has to deal with the repercussions.
I am not smart enough to make the rules about sex and dementia. I would prefer to see the emphasis on what is best for the patient, not the healthy spouse. However, I think that will be the response of most healthy spouses.
That really is NOT the same situation. I cannot imagine either of my parents ever having sex with anyone other than each other. If my mom, who had dementia, had sex with the nursing home orderly this would prove to me personally that she was way past the point of understanding what sex was and who the orderly was. If she had all her marbles, she would never ever consent to that.
Having sex with my dad would NOT prove that she had lost her marbles because if she had some awareness of what was going on, i.e., she WAS in control of her faculties, she WOULD agree. So, I would not conclude from the fact that she and my dad had sex that she was incapable of understanding what was going on.
Figuring out whether the person with dementia is capable of understanding sufficiently to consent is a heck of a lot harder when they are consenting to something that (s)he would consent to if (s)he had all her marbles.
Yes, there is some point at which the person with dementia becomes completely incapable of consent. Determining where that point is, though, is extremely difficult. I don’t think we decide it by whether they know what year it is or whether they can repeat 3 simple words. Nor do I think that one doctor should have the power to determine that.
And, finally, as I’ve said before…in this case, she’s dead. I don’t see any danger that the H will rape someone else. So, spending millions of dollars to prosecute this case seems to me a complete waste of taxpayer’s’ money.
“…then what has the prosecution accomplished?”
For one thing, the end of his political career.
I’ve thought about your point here a whole lot. For me, I think the basic difference is the possibility of having to endure pain. In my mind the point of end of life directives is to avoid pain. When the will comes into play, the individual is beyond pain. (depending, I guess, on your beliefs)
Saying prosecuting him is a tactical error implies that there was some strategic goal that the prosecution was trying to accomplish, other than convicting him. That seems to me to be a category error. It seems to me that the DA’s office would have no other goal than (rightly or wrongly) convicting a guy of having sex with a woman who was so out of it that she would sit staring vacantly at a sandwich in her hand, not remembering what it was or how to eat it. Maybe they thought the facts were particularly egregious.
What did the prosecution accomplish? Well, we’re thinking about this issue and talking about it now and we weren’t before. That’s a good result, even if the prosecution was unjustified.
That sword cuts both ways. I’m sure that Mrs. Rayhons’ daughters would say that their mother, if she had all her marbles, would never ever have consented to having sex while her roommate was in the room. Not only would the daughters say it, but it’s probably true that this elderly deeply religious Iowa woman wouldn’t have agreed to have sex while the roommate was there.
It just seems to me that if the prosecution’s goal is to obtain a conviction, they would have been better advised to choose some lesser offense–indeed, if they had, they might have been able to reach a plea agreement. Is their goal to incarcerate this individual?.
It also seems to me that it’s a little too easy to project onto the dead woman our own perceptions of what she would have wanted.
Yes, good point. If they’d prosecuted him for some lesser offense that didn’t have a prison sentence attached, seems like they would have made their point. Maybe they thought they could convict him on what they charged him with.
“Everyone knows about it except the demented wife. (couple in 80s)The family is OK with it because their dad was always on the make and just “couldn’t live” without sex for more than a couple days. So how would you feel if you were their adult children? What if you were a doctor being asked for viagra so the guy can be unfaithful to his wife?”
This is completely irrelevant, since it’s not against the law / prosecutable to have an affair. It may be morally wrong, of course, but this isn’t about moral wrongs - this is about something that is against a law.
Moreover, it’s not a doctor’s place to “vet” who a patient is sleeping with - if the man has the appropriate medical indication for Viagra, it’s not the doctor’s place to judge whether it’s because he wants to sleep with his wife, a new girlfriend, or whatever.
“It also seems to me that it’s a little too easy to project onto the dead woman our own perceptions of what she would have wanted.”
CF, your default assumption always seems to be that a woman doesn’t or wouldn’t want sex, and that men are always “after” women in some way and taking advantage of them in some kind of weakened state.
Let’s keep the personal comments out of this. - FC
Excuse the indelicate question, but was the husband’s semen found just on the bed or also in his wife?
My mother is gone. So when I think about this, I’m thinking more now about sisters. It is different, I believe, to think about your sister’s sex life than your mother’s. If my sister wants to have sex with the orderly,(assuming he is a decent guy) I think I will support her. The possible loss of dignity really doesn’t matter to her at that point in time. I want her to be happy. I am providing Martinis.
Of course, I don’t think the institution is going to allow sex with an employee, nor should they imho. And my sister can let me know right now, regardless of how she behaves, I shouldn’t facilitate sex with random strangers. One of my sisters already made me promise to see to her personal grooming needs if she is unable to do so. That is so important to her, she wants to be absolutely positive it is taken care of regardless of her physical circumstances. She gave me a list.
adding: this may tell you something about my family of origin that the main concern thus far, when considering end of life issues, is personal grooming.
None was found inside Donna Rayhons and there are conflicting reports about the bed linens and quilt. There were traces found on the panties but the defense claims there is no reliable way to attribute that DNA to the visit that is the subject of the charges against him.
@jym626 I do not believe any semen was found inside his wife.
I believe that tiny amounts of semen DNA were found on the quilt (and maybe a sheet??? not sure), but the quilt came from home, and unknown when it had been washed.
I’m not sure that finding a trace of semen DNA on a sheet would prove rape from a husband. For all we know, he may have had some traces on his hand and transferred it onto the sheet.
Too much reasonable doubt.
This case is crazy and while the DDs may not have caused this case to go forward, they created a situation (moving the mom, restricting her H, and likely bad-mouthing him to the staff) to create the basis for some of this.
"One of my sisters already made me promise to see to her personal grooming needs if she is unable to do so. That is so important to her, she wants to be absolutely positive it is taken care of regardless of her physical circumstances. She gave me a list.
adding: this may tell you something about my family of origin that the main concern thus far, when considering end of life issues, is personal grooming."
Ha - that’s ours, too!