<p>I agree that I don’t think the GCs should attempt to discern character from numbers and Ecs
I think the teacher recs should be more important- they usually know the student better- the GC may not know the student at all, until senior year when they are asked to write a recommendation.</p>
<p>I had the feeling that the primary role of the GC rec was to fill out the teacher reqs if needed ( for instance- one of my D1 friends fathers had a terminal illness and died during his senior year- that had to have affected his performance- but unless you chose to write an essay about it- how would the schools know unless the GC mentioned it?)</p>
<p>It does seem though- as some schools will give you leeway to submitting reqs from 2 or 3 teachers- and you don’t ask a teacher unless you think they will write a strong recommendation, that there isn’t any choice toward submitting your GC recommendation. So even if they are irritated by you or your family- or just aren’t good writers, you have to submit it.</p>
<p>For the Stamfords students rec. it sounds like he had a different personality type than the counselor- and optimally the adcom would be able to recognize that- but the wording does sound negative to me.</p>
<p>Rather than saying that he was missing out because he was too structured- the GC could have said that he was focused and detail oriented.</p>
<p>I don’t think that someone who is the captain of a state championship baseball team is someone who is sacrificing enjoyment.
Don’t people play sports because they enjoy it?
to be captain of a team- aren’t you usually elected by your team mates? Doesn’t that indicate that he is highly thought of- a skilled athlete who can motivate his team to win the state championship?</p>
<p>The GC wrote a pretty crappy recommendation- full of bias and gossip.
reporting that “other teachers think…” is hearsay. If the teachers want to include what they think about his work ethic that is up to them- the GC should not report what she thinks that the other teachers think. How unprofessional.</p>
<p>In my opinion it is quite possible that the guidance counselor DID know how teachers perceived this kid. Is it not possible that the GC, before writing these letters for the kids, has the junior year teachers fill out some form on the students to provide background? I know our guidance counselors ask parents to provide background for the letters, and imagine that asking teachers to do the same is reasonable.</p>
<p>Of course the guidance counselor may have come to this opinion on his or her own as well, through individual sessions with the student. Again, in our large suburban school, kids meet 1 on 1 with their GC from freshman year on to discuss interests and goals. </p>
<p>I concur with Marite that if reference/recommendation letters become uniformly positive, it diminishes the value of all such letters. It is like grade inflation. </p>
<p>I always commend teachers for giving “negative” feedback, whether at parent conferences or on report cards, as it is often the easier path to only say “nice” things. Letters that can be reviewed by students and/or their parents wouldn’t carry the same weight for me as letters that are strictly confidential. </p>
<p>On the other hand, the negative comments made by the GC in this instance seem unnecessarily pointed and undermining.</p>
<p>"GC’s rec had been unexpectedly negative, describing him as a kid who worked “like a dog” for his grades and was “extremely methodical, almost mechanical in his approach to academics as well as to life.” </p>
<p>I agree with Sybbie. That doesn’t sound like a negative recommendation to me. Many colleges would be delighted to have a methodical hard worker. Heck, many parents would be happy to have kids who acted like that and were described like that.</p>
<p>What did the student expect the recommendation to say: “He’s has the intelligence of Einstein and the intellectual and altruistic breadth of Schweitzer”?</p>
<p>CC posters are all familiar with the query from kids: “Should I take this course for an easy A, or that course because it’s weighted more?” In otehr words, it’s not knowledge, creativity, experimentation or enjoyment that counts, it’s the grade. What the GC said, in effect, was that John Raus was a grade-grubber. Had he filled out an MIT rec form, he’d have checked the no.1 box.</p>
<p>As Soozie said, at many schools GCs don’t know students very well, if at all, but I can assure you that my Ss’ GCs knew them well. S1’s GC told us that she’d worked hard to get him into a class whose teacher was the best in school, knew his class rank, had absolutely spot-on recommendations for college reaches, matches and safeties, etc… S2’s GC not only knew what his teachers said about him, but who his friends were (a mixed group), etc… </p>
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</p>
<p>Geez, let’s all write recs in public. “Jack is the next Einstein and Jill is the next Marie Curie.” Easy. Really. Saves a lot of time and thought. And no worry about the possibility of getting sued.</p>
<p>Don’t forget that the guidance counselor may have been the one person who observed what motivated the student to choose his classes. If he was dead-set on getting the maximum GPA and let that rule his choices, his guidance counselor would have been privy to that selection process, and fully entitled to her opinion.</p>
<p>My kid is a homeschooler who now (senior year) attends public school part-time. The couselor–who met him once for two minutes, read an essay he wrote about his ECs, and got a couple sound-bites from his teachers–wrote the most gaggingly glowing rec. possible. I laughed when I read it–how I’d love to trade the kid she described for the one who lives in my house! I think most GCs want their schools to look good, so they’d rarely say anything negative.</p>
<p>First of all , we as readers after the fact do not know in what context the GC knew the student as we are only getting one side of the story. At a large school, it may be harder to objectively write this kind of recommendation when a GC has a caseload of 300-400 students. </p>
<p>I know at my D’s high school which has less thatn 100 seniors the GC knows the students very well as:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>She coordinates the required junior year internship. It is a graded course in which students work outside of school two afternoons each week in supervised professional sites arranged for by the school. Students are matched with jobs based on their interests and abilities. Small in-school workshops take place periodically to enhance the program; readings, writings, and discussion foster greater learning</p></li>
<li><p>She coordinates all college courses taken in junior and senior year. It is a formal application process where grades are taken into consideration in addition to teacher recommendations.</p></li>
<li><p>She has all of the students for senior institute where the students begin by working on college applications and essays under the supervision of the college advisor. Seminar-style classes meet weekly, covering a range of topics relevant to seniors. Later in the year students research and write a Senior Thesis, either delving into a new topic of their own interest or furthering work introduced earlier in their studies. </p></li>
<li><p>she writes her recommendations using a variety of resources (brag sheets from students, input from parents and teachers).</p></li>
</ol>
<p>GC also talk to teachers as peers both inside and outside of the classroom setting. Remember the GC is not writing a recommendation, s/he is writing a report where they are asked to assess the student as is most likley not making the assessment in a vacuum.</p>
<p>To clarify - I commended the student for not threatening to sue not because I think that is a reasonable reaction but because I think it is a knee jerk reaction that many people have anytime things don’t go their way. Usually stories like this make the newspapers because a lawsuit has been filed. I think there’s a possibility this guy is trying to change a system he feels is unfair - and I commend him for that. </p>
<p>Others have noted, too, that the g.c. resorted to hearsay - reporting what other teachers think. In a system where so many of the recs are over the top who wants their kid to be the one with the brutally honest g.c. rec? I can’t say I’d volunteer my kid. Short of serious behavioral problems, I think the old adage ‘if you can’t say anything good, don’t say anything’ applies. The kinds of things written about that student could have still been said but with a more positive bent, as Suze’s post points out. All recs are subjective, but the majority are only going to focus on a student’s positive traits. </p>
<p>Ultimately, I don’t see why a g.c. would want to work against a student. This is not the same thing as hiring for a specific job. Serious issues like plagiarism, criminal behavior, etc. that can be documented are fair game. What I read sounds too much like “I don’t like the way he looks” and we all know personality conflicts arise everywhere in life.</p>
<p>That’s what good GCs are supposed to do. It’s their job to talk to students AND their teachers. They are supposed to find out from teachers how Johnny is doing in their class. Nobody ever objects to a GC writing that Johnny is a born leader, always helpful to his classmates, yadda, yadda, or complains that it is all hearsay. But how do GCs know that Johnny is a leader or is a slacker in class except through teachers? </p>
<p>Nor are GCs in the advertising business. GC rec forms have a section in which their opinion is solicited. The GC gave his (or hers). I see nothing in the article to give the lie to that opinion. The people who object would have GCs do nothing than fill out the school profile, GPA and class rank. I expect more from GCs than that. </p>
<p>There are reasons why students are asked to waive their rights to see the recs: so that the rec writers can be truthful. That means being able to be positive or negative as the case warrants. Nowadays, there are many people who are unwilling to say anything precisely because of stories such as this one. “If you wish for more information, I can be contacted at…” is often a euphemism for"I know a lot to the disadvantage of xyz but I don’t dare say it in print, but if you call me, I can be more honest."</p>
<p>Absolutely no commendation from me. I don’t see any unfairness in what is being reported unless the GC actually lied.</p>
<p>I feel strongly about this because I’ve had to write references, I’ve had to read references and make decisions based on what I read.</p>
<p>Just a thought: if the GC is well known by the college to which the student is applying, and always gives only glowing recs, the adcoms will smell a rat. Kids have flaws, no one is perfect. And yet the double-edged sword is that so many of the recs the adcoms are looking at ARE fluff. </p>
<p>It is always possible to turn a phrase so that only strengths are evident, but what if the college the kid really wants is NOT the best match. What if the GC enables the student to go to a school that is NOT going to lead to great contentment and success. And I use the word “enables” intentionally. Honesty seems the best policy, a gentle honesty, to be sure (and I think the “mechanical” part might have been a little much in the above example) but honesty nonetheless.</p>
<p>Why not? Who says profs must recuse themselves if they can’t/won’t write a glowing rec? What ever happened to writing an honest assessment?</p>
<p>The guy, being so confident and full of himself as he was, always assumed that everyone shared his own high opinion. It would never have occurred to him that any prof might write something negative. Considering the difficulty that I personally saw this guy cause a professor in class, I bet this other prof eagerly accepted the chance to write a “rec” and tell the truth about the applicant. Any medical school who admits him needs to know what they are getting.</p>
<p>I was recently in the company of several high school teachers, and one was telling a story of being asked to write a rec for a summer academic enrichment program by a student who was failing his class! He said he turned her down–first time he’d ever done so. Apparently she’s failing out of lack of work, not inability, so it’s beyond understanding why she would want to do a summer program in a similar subject. The teacher is universally acknowledged as one of the best in the school, so it’s not the class that’s the problem. Have to wonder if there’s a lot of parental pressure to get ahead that is behind this.</p>
<p>“Brilliance”, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. </p>
<p>I wonder what would happen if the GC at (insert prestige high school name here) starting writing rec’s about how the kids were grade grubbers and dull or unimaginative. And as a result of such “honesty” high stat 1500 athletic captains who play the oboe were turned down in droves to the super-selectives. What do y’all think would happen? A raise for the honest GC? Bonus perhaps? </p>
<p>Or I’ll ask another question, as my kid doesn’t attend one - what do the people paying the freight think the college guidance counseling job at a high dollar high school is for? </p>
<p>As my dear old Aunt Gertie used to say “Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander”.</p>
<p>OT- Personally, I’d rather all students be required to attend an evaluative interview where they were tested on site , challenged on site rather than accepting the word of an un-chosen individual. (BTW the GC loves my D.;))</p>
<p>Exactly right. Should the kids who are getting hurt because their guidance counselor’s recommendations are rendered meaningless by the fact that they are always positive and glowing about every kid threaten to sue too? What nonsense.</p>
<p>I have no idea whether this particular counselor’s evaluation was accurate or not (likely, neither does anyone else here), but unless the evaluation was negative for clearly improper reasons (bias against a particular student, his/her race, etc., or for another competing student on improper grounds) there is absolutely nothing wrong with what the counselor did. Counselors are supposed to talk to teachers and the student and synthesize an evaluation. Counselors have dozens, or hundreds of students to minister to, and must try to be fair to all. But, being fair does not always mean being positive. It means giving an honest evaluation of the pros and cons of each student.</p>
<p>I know I’m getting on a soapbox, but this notion that grades must be inflated, kids should all get to play on travel athletic teams, and counselors should act as advocates for every student, all in the name of avoiding hurting kids feelings or chances at their dream school, is, in my opinion, not helping kids mature. Life doesn’t work that way. If you play team sports in high school or college, your coach is going to decide who plays and how much–you may not like his/her decision, but you have to learn to accept it and/or work harder to overcome negative perceptions. When an adcom reviews your college application, he/she is comparing you to others by wholly subjective criteria. When you get out in the work force, you will be judged (sometimes harshly) by superiors and/or clients. To wrap kids up in a cacoon and attempt to shield them from this is not, in my opinion, doing them a service.</p>
<p>I agree about the GC rec needing to be honest.</p>
<p>Coureur, what I was saying of the professor rec (for the med school applicant) is that it is not the same as a letter of reference because the writer has the option of saying that they do not feel that they can write on this person’s behalf (unlike an employer at work or a GC for college admissions). I think a teacher should recuse himself if he thought the student was a twit and let the student find someone who thought better then. </p>
<p>Right now, I am counseling a particular student for college admissions. He had trouble picking rec writers. He chose his 11th gr. Calculus teacher (why??? I have no idea, he gave no reason but he had a C in the course, so may not be a good idea!). The teacher tells him, “you write it, and if I agree, I’ll sign it”. Gee, I really am against this and have said so. The math teacher either is lazy and doesn’t write recs, OR was not keen on writing for this kid (though should have suggested he find someone else). Now get this, against my advice, the student is getting help from his English teacher, who is his OTHER academic rec writer (!) who also tutors him in English privately, to help him write the MATH teacher’s rec. All the drawbacks to this were explained on my end. Parents say GC says math teachers don’t like to write recs. Well then, pick someone else who WILL write for you. So, I truly think that a teacher rec is an option and that person should only agree to write if they feel they could write on the student’s behalf (though should be honest in the rec and not gloss over and put a spin on things). A GC does not have such an option and must write about the student and should be honest, though back up any opinions with examples so as not to make judgements such as the kid not enjoying life, etc. Examples really validate the opinions given in the letter. </p>
<p>Or I’ll ask another question, as my kid doesn’t attend one - what do the people paying the freight think the college guidance counseling job at a high dollar high school is for?
as someone whose child attended a high dollar high school- and whose college counselor had only 18 students to write recommendations for - I will say that I expected more- She/he was very good at making sure students had the necessary tests/ good at organizing trips junior year for students to look at colleges, but i don’t know how much even this counselor with only 18 students to process talked to their teachers- let alone a counselor at a school where they were responsible for over 400 students.
Example
The only recommendation i saw of my Ds was one from the teacher that ran the youth legislature program. the gist of it was
" When grading papers, I have to resist reading _______'s first as all that come after would look weak in comparision, instead i console myself that i will save it as a treat to look forward to." he went on to say what a good writer she was, clear, witty, detailed ( obviously she didn’t get that from me!)
I am assuming she had good other recs- she was admitted to all her colleges, including her reach despite significant financial need, but the main recommendations for schools that I remember from her counselor was
“dont apply to the university of washington( too big) Linfield ( in Oregon) is a good fit.”
( She didn’t apply to Linfield- she couldn’t stand it- and of course she is a senior @ Reed)
many families apparently hired their own college counselors-I may do that myself when D2s turn comes-I like her high school counselor, but counselors have so much to do- constantly busy- that I don’t see how they have time for anything but filling out the recommendation with the filled out form letter that students submit ,with the help of their transcripts.
they certainly don’t have time to ask teachers about them- they don’t even have time to consult with teachers when writing 504 plans</p>
<p>Last week I met with my 9th grader’s g.c. during teacher conferences to alert the g.c. that my d. would be coming to her for a rec. I was concerned because my d. has never met her g.c. - and in the normal course of things wouldn’t until at least next spring when she signs up for next years’ courses. I asked how the g.c. would be able to write a rec for someone she doesn’t know. She said she’d meet with my d. for about 20 minutes to get to know her and then would call her g.c. from the middle school and because they’d work in the past she would feel confident in accepting the other g.c.'s assessment of my d. I’m not sure the middle school counselor would even recognize a picture of my d. because they met once, but of course they all have access to her record. I don’t fault either of these g.c.s, I’m just describing our experience. My s. had a new g.c. assigned to him his senior year, and they first met in October to discuss his college applications. </p>
<p>Maybe, if my d. isn’t assigned a new counselor for whatever reason, her g.c. will be able to write a college rec about her from personal knowledge. We’ve yet to experience that.</p>
<p>I do think that parents paying tuition expect and receive personalized service. I don’t think private schools would stay in business too long if their recs weren’t focussing on the positive.</p>
<p>If that were the policy, then this guy would have had to go without any letters, unless one from his mother would count. I think the only prof who would have written a positive one about him would have been somone who didn’t know him.</p>
<p>There is a difference between stating facts and opinion - and opinions in the example in this case were clearly used to undercut and sabotage a student with a very strong record. </p>
<p>My d. had a similar experience years ago with a recommendation from a teacher who she had always had difficulty with [NOT a college app] .This particular teacher volunteered to write a recommendation, which suprised my d. as she had always had a sense that the teacher didn’t like her. The teacher mistakenly thought the letter would be confidential - it wasn’t - and like the example in the article, the letter at best damned with faint praise. It also contained some rather cruel and cutting remarks, and it had some factual statements that were outright falsehoods. Fortunately, the letter never reached its intended destination - my d. instead got a letter from the teacher she had originally intended to ask. </p>
<p>But d. learned an important lesson – she is one kid who will NOT waive the right to see her rec letters during the college app process. </p>
<p>To those who are worried about accuracy, experience has taught us otherwise. It was the negative letter, which the teacher mistakenly thought was private, that was full of lies. Both my kids were given copies of the letters their teachers wrote for college recs, and the letters are very detailed, very specific, and clearly talking about unique characteristics of each kid. They are not merely glowing reports full of laudatory adjectivies – rather, they use specific facts and anecdotes to convey a sense of each kid’s personality as well as accomplishments. </p>
<p>My d. happens to have a GC whom she has difficulty with – fortunately, not the one who is responsible for writing college recs. But the fact is that there is a personality conflict - and the same attributes that another teacher might see as evidencing my d’s strong leadership skills or creativity apparently fit into the slot of “troublemaker” in this particular counselor’s eyes. </p>
<p>We can’t control what a GC writes, but this “confidentiality” game is no guarantee of truth.</p>