When the GC's rec says more than it needs to

carolyn · November 22, 2005, 7:54pm

The better question is : Was he portrayed inaccurately?

Marite, I think this is a very important point.

The teacher who wrote my daughter’s recommendations did give her a copy. My daughter thought it was a “great” recommendation, but I cringed when I read it the first time. It wasn’t negative, mind you, but on first read I was somewhat incensed that she missed the fact that my daughter is a brilliant rocketscientist who cures cancer in her spare time.

After I calmed down, however, I realized that while this wasn’t the “miracle child” recommendation I’d wished for, it was a very realistic and honest assessment of who my D. is in the classroom. Yes, my ego was bruised a bit that D. isn’t the superstar I wish she was, but I already knew that. The teacher was not, I’m sure, trying to torpedo her chances — she was simply being honest and describing my daughter as she sees her (and D. has been in her class for 3 and a half years).

I’ve gone back and forth in my mind how this will affect her chances. I’m sure it will lessen her chances at some schools she’s applying to, but after a rather loud discussion about asking a different teacher for another recommendation, D. decided she’d stick with this one.

Anyhow, after this experience, I’m not sure it is a good idea to see recommendation letters before they’re sent. If they’re honest, the truth can hurt to read (or at least deflate a parent’s ego about their child). If they’re not honest, then it is likely that will also come across, and, perhaps do even more harm. (I mean, let’s face it, what would an admissions committee think if it received a glowing recommendation about a student’s academic prowess…and then saw a transcript full of B’s? Or received a recommendation who praised a student’s leadership skills, then saw no evidence of such in the EC list? )

I know most people here won’t agree with me on this one (and I’m still struggling and doubtful about my D’s rec), but perhaps we’re trying to control the process too much when we start pushing to have recommendations give unreal assessments of every single child.

marite · November 22, 2005, 8:20pm

Carolyn:

We were not shown recs for either of my Ss, and, honestly, I would not have wanted to see them. Unless they contained real inacurracies, what would I have done if there were negative comments except spent sleepless nights and worried about my blood pressure?
I know of one prof whose glowing recs are routinely discounted by those who know him and his former students. It’s too bad, because sometimes an individual student might actually live up to the hype.
As long as your D’s teacher’s rec is not unduly negative and is generally positive, I think that a letter that shows evidence that the teacher tried to portray your D honestly, warts and all, may actually work in her favor better than one that implies she walks on water. Anyway, you know I have faith that your D will land in a great college.

quiltguru · November 22, 2005, 9:28pm

My D’s school handles the GC letter in a way I’ve never heard at any other school and that I really admire. First, the counselors are each assigned approximately 15 students in their junior year and meet with them 4 times during the year to gain information about them. At those times, usually during a study hall or free period as they are called, the students each “free write” answers to questions about themselves, their activities, and how they view themselves. E.g., they are asked to list 15 adjectives that describe themselves, asked to describe one thing about which they are particularly proud, etc. The students are then asked to give “blue sheets” with similar questions to 3 teachers who they believe know them well to fill out. Then, the 4 counselors and another 4 to 8 teachers meet in committe and divvy up the seniors to write the first draft of the GC letter. From what I understand, usually a certain teacher will volunteer to write about one of the students they know well. That teacher is given all of the free writings that the student has generated, the academic record, and the “blue sheets” and writes the draft which is presented to the full committee for comments/corrections/etc. The original teacher then re-writes the letter incorporating those comments and re-presents it to the full committee for final approval. THEN, the student gets a note on their locker requesting that they make an appointment with the Head of School. At this meeting, the Head reads the letter to the student. The student doesn’t get to keep a copy of the letter and the parents never see it. Of course, we all sweat bullets and then get out our dental drills to pry the contents out of our kids…which they all conveniently forget or refuse to tell us. BUT, they ALL feel good about themselves when they walk out of the Head of School’s office. Who knows how these letters read to adcoms? Usually the top 10 to 15% of the class is successful at being admitted to one of the selective schools, so I suspect they know how to communicate with who they need to.

Teacher letters are never shown to the students. I still don’t know the best way to go about picking who these teachers should be. Neither parents nor students have seen much of the writings of any particular teacher. I know it was an issue for my D when it turned out that her favorite teacher who knew her the best (she had taken 3 years of foreign language from her) was the one who wrote her GC letter so couldn’t also write a teacher rec!

I guess the point in these ramblings is that students and parents are told to choose their recommenders carefully. I just don’t know how to do this, as exemplified by the OP.

ellemenope · November 22, 2005, 9:35pm

The problem is that we really don’t know why the applicant was rejected by Tufts. It could have been reasons other than the GC recommendation. . .test scores, essays, etc. I have a hard time believing that a “somewhat qualified” (and it was only somewhat qualified) GC recommendation could sink an otherwise superb application.

I’ve seen the process by which GCs write recommendations at our local high school–the kids fill out a questionnaire, they submit a resume, their parents write a page about them, and the GCs talk to 4 teachers that the kids choose. From their own personal knowledge of the kids (if any) and the above info, the GC writes a letter. Some kids they know well–other kids they are meeting for the first time. At large public high schools, it is hit-or-miss.

calmom · November 22, 2005, 9:50pm

Marite, my kids were shown recommendation letters before they were sent, precisely to give them a chance to clear up any inaccuracies. It’s not a case of going in seeking a letter full of hype and hyperbole – but rather to make sure that the teachers get their facts straight.

And as far as Carolyn’s comment about trying to control the process too much… I am completely out of it. Its always been between my kids and their teachers. So its not a parental thing.

I’m wondering whether a GC at a school like the one mentioned in the article might deliberately sabotage one application in order to bolster another. In other words, perhaps the true agenda was to promote a lower-ranked kid’s application when the GC knew both were competing for the same school – and perhaps the other kid could be portrayed as an imaginative, creative risk-taker.

marite · November 22, 2005, 9:53pm

Calmom, I understand, but as a general principle, I am still against showing recs to students or parents. The recs will all turn into mush that no one will pay attention to.

calmom · November 22, 2005, 9:56pm

Maybe it’s my legal background coming into play here. My experience tells me that what is written in “confidential” form is often very different than what is said publicly…and that the more that is hidden from view, the less likely it is that the truth will emerge.

marite · November 22, 2005, 10:09pm

Calmom:
Your D’s case suggests that there are occasions when recs are inaccurate. But the more general possibillity is that if they are made available to students before being sent out, they will ALL be inaccurate except for the real walk-on water kids. Nobody will wish to venture an honest opinion. Recs will be rendered totally useless.

cloverdale7 · November 22, 2005, 10:29pm

The school in question is a large urban public that sends about 56 percent of its kids to 4 yr colleges, mostly State schools. It’s counselors and teachers have not been trained, in the mode of some other highly-ranked public schools, on how to garner elite college acceptances. It is not a mission at that school, as it is at some others.

Many of the teachers at the school in question do not know the basics of writing a recommendation letter --and why should they, it has never been emphasized, discussed, or made part of their training, in contrast with private schools and so many of the high-ranked publics just up the road. In a sitation like that, where staff may not know the form of a letter or what it should contain, it’s too bad that there isn’t some staff training. In lieu of that, I have to say that someone who is advocating for the kid should see the letter just to make sure it even addresses appropriate terrain.

Only a school NOT in tune with admissions would trash a Valedictorian like that. In general students should not see letters, but in a situation like this, where staff does not have the basics and even the best students can be shunted to third rate colleges because of this lack on the part of staff, not just this GC, but others --in that case, I would recommend that students not sign a waiver, and that they check the letter before it is sent out. AND that they request factual changes or additions, and seek another rec writer if that cannot be accomplished.

Unless, of course, the student is headed to community college and cares not a whit about scholarships.

ellemenope · November 23, 2005, 12:26am

Whether or not the student sees the letter of rec before admissions decisions are made is determined by the writer of the letter (unless there is a high school policy that mandates showing or not showing).

Not signing the waiver doesn’t mean you get to see the letter before admissions decisions are made. It only says that you will be able to see the letter if you matriculate to that university, you ask to see your admissions file and the letter was kept in the file.

Once you’ve been admitted, why should you care? It would only satisfy your curiosity, perhaps.

CC_Admin · November 23, 2005, 4:50am

A girl I know who was not accepted to any of the US colleges to which she applied had comments in her GC letter referencing her ethnicity (and her ‘atypicality’ for that ethnicity), her dress and her political leanings. None of these belonged in that letter in the way they were stated. The mother of the girl received the letter from the Uni she is attending in Europe, part of a package of materials she was given that the Uni did not need or want.

This said, I am totally opposed to kids reading their recommendations, and to parents reading them. The reason that kids should not read their recommendations is either:#1 they have waived their right to see them or #2 they have not waived their right but are not in a position to critique or judge what is said about them by the evaluator.

Our school suggested kids waive their rights as a vote of confidence in themselves. If you waive your rights, you should not then ask to see your recommendations, should you? No one should show them to you, should they? Seems straightforward to me, in fact. You are taking a gamble that, as Carolyn learned, the teacher will in fact describe your child the way they are…

I do think recommendations and GC letters should be reviewed by more than one person (just as the student’s essays are often reviewed by someone other than themselves) for factual, spelling or other errors that might reflect ‘badly’ on the written work- or badly on the student if a phrase or comment could be misconstrued. Even experienced GCs are probably vulnerable to a comment here or there that might be taken another way than was intended.

I realize that this labor intensive step is less likely at a school with GCs or teachers who are overworked, not oriented towards elite school admissions. Chances are there is someone at the school who can write, someone at the school who is invested in a talented kid going far, and someone at the school who can pull it all together. Advocate and provide positive input. A friend whose children attend a Lycee provided sample letters using American style hyperboles to get the point across to French teachers accustomed to reserved commentary, for example.

The point of control should not be in the reviewing of the actual reference letter (because as Marite notes, then the letters will become nothing more than mush ultimately)…it should be in advance. Providing helpful information that will make the lives of the letter writers easier, and then requesting oversight to avoid having your child described as a ‘skittish dresser’ (whatever that means) seems helpful to me.

calmom · November 23, 2005, 5:58am

And who is to provide the oversight? My daughter is very lucky that her public school actually has a college counselor, rather than relying on an overworked guidance counselor with a caseload of 500 students. My son’s high school had 1 counselor for more than 700 students. The public school counselors don’t coordinate with anyone for recs – the students go directly to teachers. My daughter’s counselor was particularly helpful, though… he gave her a bunch of envelopes with the school address on it that she could use to provide to the teachers.

Your anecdote about the kid with the inappropriate references to ethnicity, dress and political belief are exactly the sort of thing I would expect and fear when recommendations are cloaked in secrecy. It makes no sense whatsoever to me that parents and kids should be denied access to these – my kids have been receiving written evaluations from teachers from the time they were in primary school. By now we should all be able to cope with a little honest criticism – and at the same time experienced teachers should know how to phrase things positively and diplomatically.

As I have said, good letters are full of facts, not opinions – and letters can’t overcome or change the reality of the academic record. If the kid is a C student, it isn’t going to help if a teacher describes the kid as brilliant - the grades tell a different story. On the other hand, if the kid is a valedictorian, no one who writes a recommendation has any right to second guess whether the student really is smart enough to deserve the grades.

My guess is that historically, the tradition of a confidential recommendation has probably been a great way that bias was entrenched in the decision – my parents applied to colleges at a time when most colleges had quotas limiting the number of Jewish students they would admit. I’m sure that confidential recommendations were an important way for ad coms in those days to determine the true ethnicity of students with Anglicized names… just as it seems from anecdotal evidence that it has now become a prime vehicle to telegraph other possibly inappropriate information.

As I said… its probably my legal training that makes me feel so strongly about this. I’ve never yet seen anyone benefit from waiving their rights to anything – at least in every other endeavor in life, a waiver is an open door for someone else to take unfair advantage of you. As to whether it hurts the student to check, or not check the box… I honestly doubt that it would make a difference when the letter has true substance.

Of course, the most likely scenario is that confidentiality is mostly a shield for ineptitude. I’ll bet a lot of teachers and GC’s probably generate very poor, generic letters that could easily apply to any of a dozen students - and with no one checking, they probably get away with this year after year. I suppose that there are a lot of ill-informed students who would be very happy with such letters even if they did see them - in fact, the internet is full of bad sample letters labeled as good. Here are some examples that are not nearly as good as they pretend to be - - they are full of generalities, lack detail, and basically could be assembled from a fill-in-the-blank template:

<a href=“http://businessmajors.about.com/od/samplerecommendations/a/NewSample13.htm[/url]”>http://businessmajors.about.com/od/samplerecommendations/a/NewSample13.htm</a>

<a href=“http://www.a2zcolleges.com/adm/samplereco.html[/url]”>http://www.a2zcolleges.com/adm/samplereco.html</a>

Now, here are examples of 2 good letters:

“Ezra” letter:
<a href=“http://www.■■■■■■■■■.com/college/admissions/recommendations/samplecollege.shtml[/url]”>http://www.■■■■■■■■■.com/college/admissions/recommendations/samplecollege.shtml</a>

“Alicia” letter:
<a href=“http://www.■■■■■■■■■.com/college/admissions/recommendations/samplecollege2.shtml[/url]”>http://www.■■■■■■■■■.com/college/admissions/recommendations/samplecollege2.shtml</a>

They are good because they are rich in detail - they each tell a story. No college ad com is going to worry about whether the student waived the right to see those letters - the letters are unmistakable in their authenticity. Of course the college ad coms are also going to take the hyperbole with a grain of salt - that part doesn’t matter, because it is the details of Ezra’s dedication or Alicia’s kindness that will shine through.

Now I can see how the generic letters will easily slide by, whether or not the students see them – but it’s a pretty good bet that the applicants in the Ezra and Alicia letters worked closely with their recommenders - either that or the teachers had rather prodigious memories for detail. In fact, I would consider it possibly unethical if the teacher writing the Alicia letter did not first at least ask the student for permission to disclose some of the personal and perhaps private information that is relayed in that letter.

CC_Admin · November 23, 2005, 7:55am

Calmom,
I wonder if in the admissions process the pre-packaged and perfect stuff is often seen as disgenuine, of limited value, not as interesting as that which is somehow ‘more real.’

I think that the well written and very impressive recommendations you presented are probably, as you have suggested (particularly the Alicia letter) the result of substantial crafting. I don’t personally see this as the aim of every college recommendation letter. Each person who writes a letter knows a slice of the student. The part that emerges in the class environment, shared EC’s, vignettes on campus, etc. To me, a letter written that exposes those sorts of contexts tells more about the student as a person, less about them as some sort of ‘superhero.’

As to oversight…I think pre-work is a form of oversight. The GC who worked with my kids didn’t know them well (the teachers who wrote recommendations did, however). The boys prepared sheets about themselves to give to everyone. I augmented this for the GC. I told it ‘like it is’ about my kids- I know them better than the GC and I write about kids for a living. A page and a half of bullet points. I didn’t gloss over the realities of their lives, but I wrote about them with affection and compassion. So, son#1’s propensity for procrastination, and son#2’s occasional bouts of excessive intensity were weighted by a reflection on them as kids who take all comers, look for the best in people, make other people look good, rebound from defeat- I included a few anecdotes,etc.

Then I left it up to him. Honestly, I don’t know what he included or didn’t include of what I gave him- but he has now invited all parents to do the same- so it must have been of some value.

I think any letter written- by a teacher or a GC should have to be approved by 2 people before it is sent. You could say 3 people, or any other number, but I think that there should be some checks and balances. Our school does this for recommendations, which the GC sees ,though not for the GC letter itself, as far as I know.

Colleges want to admit kids, not machines that produce the facade of a kid. I think that there are steps that need to be taken to ensure there is nothing erroneous or in appropriate in content and form, but beyond that I think there has to be a forum for the honest and unadulterated presentation of a kid and how they are seen by others…

But then, I am not a lawyer…and the system I described seemed to work for my kids, so I am happy with it!

cloverdale7 · November 23, 2005, 7:57am

To Robyrm: The notion that the school in question would EVER provide an overseer who is advocate for the child’s interest is absurd. In this large urban public, it will never happen, NEVER. Therefore, these students are simply at a disadvantage compared to others, period and end of story.

When there is no one to advocate for you you must step up to the plate and become your own advocate. To tell people to walk into a situation knowing they have a handicapping disadvantage, but to take no steps to correct it, is not good advice.

I agree that the best solution is a third-party advocate who can oversee the process. However, that is impossible here. In lieu of that, these students should NOT sign the waiver and should see their recommendations. The disadvantage the best students at this school suffer due to poorly written letters is so great that it is far greater than the admissions hit they might take by not signing the waiver.

Objecting to such students seeing their recs serves simply to invest those in elite privates and heavy-hitting publics with a huge and unfair (probably to the point of unethical) advantage. Your ideal is correct, but impossible here. Instead, what you are suggesting just magnifies the inequities that already exist.

CC_Admin · November 23, 2005, 8:14am

Cloverdale,
The letter I described was written by a GC with years of experience in elite college admissions, in fact. So, even the ‘advantaged’ need to be wary. I agree, we have to be our children’s best advocates. I have been surprised, in fact, by how intensive a role a parent has to take in a school which is completely college oriented…

That said, I listened to every single admissions officer at every meeting and information session say to send recommendation letters having signed waivers. And, as I have said, I think there is utility in allowing frank observations to be shared.

I guess I am not sure how to juxtapose these needs in the context of a system as is currently in place. I would have to think that on the receiving end, the admissions officers are not looking for the same thing from the letters from ‘large urban public’ as they are from ‘elite prep.’ Maybe the ‘large urban public’ can supplement with well written letters by others who know them well…

marite · November 23, 2005, 8:33am

Cloverdale:

I am not sure that the GC in the story was being incompetent and lacked training. I know for sure that my S’s GC knew better than any of his teachers why he took the courses he did: he had to select them for my S so that they could fit his unusual schedule. As a matter of fact, the teacher of the senior English class my S took as a junior did not realize until late in the term that my S was not a senior, like the rest of the class (and grumbled that he would not have admitted him into it had he known). 
As another poster said, GCs are often privy to the reasons why students select certain courses far better than the teachers, and some of these reasons can be sheer grade grubbing. Any time the issue of valedictorians has come up on CC, there have been stories about valedictorians who took easy courses, who played dirty tricks on other students to get ahead, who “sucked up” to particular teachers, etc…
And the moral of the story was often that the valedictorians were not the better students.
So I agree with Calmom that there can be illegitimate and inaccurate information in teachers’ and GCs’ letters, but this particularly case is not one that I would want to build an argument on. We simply don’t know what motivated the GC to write as he did.

Calmom:

I would like a system where students and parents do get to have input in the rec writing process and where recs are reviewed by another person before being sent out, but not by the student or parent. Our school has brag sheets in which students and parents are invited to say a few words of description about their student. We filled out one for S1; we did not fill out one for S2. He was a junior, so he was passed over when brag sheets were distributed.

calmom · November 23, 2005, 2:31pm

Marite, the one way we could be more certain that the opinion expressed by the GC who wrote about John the Valedictorian would be if the process were more open – because it would have given John the opportunity to respond to what was said against him if it were unfounded . You are right that the GC might have been more reluctant to make those statements in the first place – but that would have been no great loss, because I don’t think they were the type of statements that have any place in the admissions process in the first place. What is obvious is that GC doesn’t really like or relate to John, but we don’t know why. If John were Chinese you could see how those remarks could easily be made based on ethnic stereotyping or prejudice – they are almost identical in tone to the complaints registered by the white flight families in the “too many Asians” thread.

So you and I agree that we don’t know – I just think that the easiest way to keep the GC’s honest is for them to know that their remarks may be read by anyone, including the student.

Robyrm, most colleges discourage supplemental recommendations, and in any case a student wouldn’t know if he needed to supplement without seeing what has been filed. It is surprising what people write. My d has always wanted to get a college rec from a now retired English teacher she is very close to - she was his favorite in small class of 10 students and she has maintained regular contact with him since he retired. But when she asked, he suggested she write her own letter and give it to him for a signature - so instead she went to an English teacher whom she had a lot of conflict with (the teacher also taught history and liked to debate politics in class, and my daughter often was outspoken in expressing an opposing view) – the letter she got is far and above the most impressive letter she has. I’m glad she has a copy, because knowing of the conflict, I’d feel very stressed out wondering what that teacher said – and maybe in an environment of secrecy, my daughter would have hesitated as well, and asked a teacher who she got along with better. But I think my daughter’s sense was that the teacher who debated with her also knew her well and respected her intellect… and it turned out her instincts were right.

I find it somewhat ironic that you are opposed to the idea of students seeing their letters, but you took such a proactive and highly involved approach yourself toward supplying the GC with information. I think my kids would have been mortified if I wrote a letter with bullet points and anecdotes describing their attributes - and I wouldn’t dream of injecting myself so heavily in the process. The most I have done is ask a few questions, such as inquiring about my d’s class rank; I never even met my son’s counselor until after all college apps were in. I don’t know how the process can be seen as encouraging honesty if one kid is going to the GC with a packet of materials, including choice quotes carefully crafted by a mom who writes about kids for a living – and other kids have nothing similar simply because it doesn’t occur to them or their parents to lobby the GC that way.

binx · November 23, 2005, 2:52pm

This topic is of interest to me because getting recommendations for D is going to be a challenge.

First, I have to say that I define recommendation as positive by nature – to recommend is not the same as to evaluate. There are other options for evaluation – grades, test scores, interviews. The differences among the kids should become apparent by how hard the writer has to work to recommend (faint praise?), and by the specifics offered. The examples about how a student gets good grades (brilliance, hard work, or less challenging courses), or what particular attributes the recommender chooses to portray (social, bookish, competitive, easy-going) should give the school an idea of how the student would fit in, without necessarily being negative. It should be just a piece of the puzzle.

D’s teachers in Germany are not likely to understand the difference between recommendation and evaluation, and I envision 1 or 2 sentence letters: “Student is a bright, friendly, well-behaved girl who has had some struggles in class due to language difficulties.” Accurate, sure, but not in any way that will benefit.

On the other hand, when we return home, she’ll be expected to have a counselor write about her who doesn’t even know her at all. We learned today that the counselor who we have been working with throughout this delegation, and who worked with my older children, will no longer be assigned to her. When we get home, we’re starting from scratch. The counselor will be writing from her resume and transcript; the colleges would be better off just reading the originals!

marite · November 23, 2005, 3:19pm

This is where we disagree. Even as I acknowledge the risks of inaccurate recs, the easiest way to scare GCs and teachers from being honest is to force them to share their opinions with the students and parents. And I really don’t get the point about the comments of the GC that the opinion he expressed had no business being part of the rec. Why should reservations not have a place when no one has ever complained that little Johnny was described as not just a future Einstein but the best thing since sliced bread, the invention of the wheel?

If colleges wanted 'just the fact, mam" they would not a provide a space for GCs to actually write something. But they also depend on the “something” not to be invariably gushing.

cloverdale7 · November 23, 2005, 3:33pm

Pardon me, this was the valedictorian. Let’s say he was strategic in selecting classes to secure that position, so what? IMO virtually all Vals are stratetgic to a degree in that mode. It’s not a bad thing unless what is done is unethical or illegal. That letter was a trashing. If the GC has a specific incident to point to that violated ethics, that would be one thing --but he did not. Top high schools with knowledge about college admissions do not behave like that GC. Did you see the comment from the head of guidance in that school --that recommendations do not count for much? We all know that in elite admissions, where most applicants have top classes, top gpas and top scores, they count for a ton. What an ignorant statement, and it was made to the newspapers, too. Wow. No, I must disagree with those who think this is okay. It is not, and puts students in that school at a huge competitive disadvantage.

To have the person in charge of recommendations comment that they don’t mean very much …well, what can I say, it speaks for itself.

When the GC's rec says more than it needs to

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