<p>Binx, if it is any consolation, my daughter’s college counselor really didn’t know her well before this year (her senior year). This is because we do have a system with a separate college counselor, and unlike the other GC’s, the college counselor usually does not have much contact with kids until spring of their junior year when they start thinking about colleges. So its a mixed blessing. My d. met with the counselor the first time late last spring, but didn’t have time to do much other than show him her preliminary college list. However, we do feel comfortable that he will be able to write an appropriate rec, simply because of the information that she has provided this fall. She has met with him a few times now, and of course gave him a list or activity sheet of some kind. (As noted above, I stayed out of the process, trusting that my d. is able to make her own list of what she has been doing for the past 3 years).</p>
<p>Anyway, I would suggest that your daughter do the same: write up a 2 or 3 page list summarizing her high school experiences, activities and accomplishments; make an appointment early on to meet with the g.c. at the new school, and provide him or her with the list. A short essay describing what it was like to attend school in Germany might also be helpful. </p>
<p>As to the situation with the overseas school and recs, I think your daughter should contact the admissions staff at the schools she plans to apply to and ask for guidance – this issue probably comes up frequently with students applying from overseas, and the ad coms are probably well aware that they can’t expect the same sort of recommendation letter. </p>
<p>I think the main thing is that your daughter should be proactive at her new school, trying to cultivate a good relationship with her teachers early on. I know that can be difficult - adjusting to a new school is hard enough - but I think that she can still get good letters from teachers at her new school. She just needs to put her best foot forward and work really hard on early assignments so the teachers get a positive impression. She should also bring some sample of her work in Germany to share with the teachers – this will also help for placement in courses like math. </p>
<p>Remember, first impressions count for a lot. So I envision your daughter getting letters that say something like, “Although I have only known BinxTochter for a short time, I was impressed from the start by her maturity and her enthusiasm for learning.” - followed up by a couple of anecdotes to illustrate the point. Of course the adjectives may vary, but your d. will have a lot to share and give as a result of her experiences, and her task is merely to make sure that teachers at her new school are quickly made aware of it.</p>
<p>So? What’s wrong about saying that he was strategic? Unless you know something to the contrary, I don’t think that we know for a fact that the GC was “trashing.” Granted, he was not applying to MIT. But the MIT rec makes it clear that its adcoms suspect many students to be achieving high grades through “being focused on grades.”</p>
<p>I don’t say that <em>I</em> would have written such a rec; but I have no basis to assume that what the GC was wrong, valedictorian or not.</p>
<p>I just revisited the Common Application site. It, of course, is just one way to apply, but the way the forms are written may be instructive. The forms given to teachers are headed Teacher Evaluation, and the ones for the counselor are called School Report and Mid-Year Report. The counselor is to give the necessary test and grade data, then write an “evaluation.” I note that on all of these forms, the aspects of the students the teacher and counselor are to focus on are stated in positive terms, but the word “recommendation” is one we just assume, and surely hope, is there. </p>
<p>What the GC said was opinionated and pejorative without being fact-based. The GC could not know whether what he said was true or not, because he was commenting on the inner life of this young man --that he lacked a level of joy. How is the GC to know this? This was a focused, strategic student who played by the straight and narrow. So what? THAT was HIS virtue, who he was --he was not the artiste, he was the strategist. That is why he will probably be an excellent attorney.</p>
<p>The GC could not really know about this student’s inner life, and it would be most unusual in this large urban public if he did. I can take any person in the world and define them by a negative. No one is perfect. I might take a creative, spontaneous student and say that student has failed to strategize. I might take a theater student and say that student has failed to challenge herself in AP and college classes. We all have gaps and sometimes one set of traits is in opposition to another. These letters should address the tangible, the fact-based --they should not attempt to psychoanalyze students to the negative, to read their minds, to assign positive or negative value to essentially neutral qualities, or to pretend to have access to a student’s secret intentions and inner life. It is not up to the guidance counselor to assign negative attribution to the act of strategizing to become valedictorian, if that is what occurred.</p>
<p>I can tell you something about the culture of this school that IS fact-based: The head of its guidance department feels the letters of recommendation produced out of his department are of little relevance. He said so in the newspaper. Now THAT is a fact. As a result of this documented misconception on the part of this school official, top students who need those letters are paying a very big price.</p>
<p>What if the GC suggested that the student take a course that would stretch him a bit, and the student responded that he wanted to take an easy course because he wanted to protect his GPA, or he was uninterested in more “creative” kind of courses? That happens all the time. WE simply do not know what transpired between the GC and the student. I do know that my S and his GC discussed course selections extensively and as a result the GC had a pretty good idea of how my S’s mind works.
As momofthree reminded us, what we call “recs” are in fact supposed to be evaluation. So the GC evaluated.</p>
<p>Let me fill you in, then. This is a LARGE urban public. The GC does not have that kind of extended discussion with students regarding course selection. DOES NOT HAPPEN. It’s all computerized and mostly handled through forms. GCs have very little time for any one student. And while you may not know this for a fact regarding this particular school, please take my word for it when I tell you that I DO. I do know for a fact.</p>
<p>To be valedictorian at this high school requires the student take many AP and honors courses. This student has had to stretch himself to become valedictorian --no matter what the motivation, it was a lot of work. Not everyone is an artist. Not everyone wants to be in a play or a band. This boy was head of a sports team. THAT was HIS passion. Why should anyone pass judgment on it?</p>
<p>That is what makes the world go round.</p>
<p>You are assuming this guidance counselor may have had extended conversations trying to convince this young man to be creative. I want to disabuse you of that notion: If that happened at SHS, it would be a first. The possibility that that is what went on is so unlikely as to be laughable and absurd. You would have to know the school to understand what I mean.</p>
<p>I do expect would-be valedictorians to take honors and APs. That does not negate the fact that many such students are grade-grubbers.</p>
<p>I’ll take your word for it that the GC was not truthful. Is that okay? I bow to your superior knowledge of the school and of that GC. Our high school, by the way, has 1800 students.</p>
<p>Unless you are the GC in question or you have surveryed each and every student about their contact (or lack thereof) with the GC, you can only talk to what you perceive to be true and not with 100% certainty. It is really more of a sweeping generalization (even though you claim to know first hand) because a family that really wants and needs to connects with a GC will find a way to do so. And yes, first do happen.</p>
<p>I did not say the GC was dishonest, but rather, inappropriate --and that he was very likely opining without sufficient evidence for his opinion, not enough evidence to derail someone’s life. And by the way, there really is no reason to be so sarcastic …“I bow to your superior knowledge…” etc., as if perhaps this too is suspect. You commented that you were posting without direct knowledge of the situation, so you are talking theoretically, conjecturing …just like the guidance counselor theorized and conjectured that this student had no inner joy. You can theorize all you want …and defend the GC’s right to theorize all you want …but having the right to do something doesn’t make it the right thing to do. It’s all well and good to guess and theorize, but there’s nothing like being there, now is there, to really know the score?</p>
<p>Look, you claim knowledge that I do not claim to possess, and now you take exception to my decision to defer to your superior knowledge? Sheesh
You claim that the GC theorized and conjectured. Do you know that for a fact? Do you know for a fact what transpired between the GC and that student in the four years the latter was in the school? Or is it a conjecture on your part? </p>
<p>Never mind. Again, I bow to your knowledge of all individuals involved. Happy Thanksgiving.</p>
<p>sybbie: It’s true I am not a fly on the wall for encounters between students and GCs. I am only reporting what I feel is the likely scenario, but from longstanding first-hand observation, not distant conjecture. I must say I am surprised at how many parents on this board feel it’s okay for a GC to make comments like that in a recommendation–I wonder if you would feel that way if it were your kid. (not that it’s mine.) To me it seems inappropriate, even in a case where a GC does know a kid well. It is a negative hurtful statement. This is a high school where the head of guidance has said letters of recommendation are not that important in defense of this letter. I’m wondering if you would feel this was acceptable as a point of view in your high school, and if you would defend it there? Well, whatever, I’m not going to keep arguing in this forum. I contend these students are disadvanted by this attitude, which reflects a profound lack of knowledge about college admissions in the real world. The issue goes far beyond this one student, but is an endemic and widespread issue. College counselors who know so little about getting into college aside from the State U cannot possibly benefit students who aspire to more. This is not a level playing field.</p>
<p>hmm the school has about 2000 students and the average SAT score was less than 1000. ( 2003- latest scores posted) I wonder if the school just didn’t have many students applying to competitive schools.
in some areas like the Conn state test- school test scores while coming up, are significantly lower than state as a whole.Students in that environment may be seen as “grade grubbers” if they work hard in class- as contrasted by other students who aren’t as successful</p>
<p>Sounds like another one of those divisive issues that arise from time to time. For what it’s worth, I agree with you, cloverdale - and that’s why I stopped posting.</p>
<p>Cloverdale
Can’t agree with you more. Its more than an art to write a decent recom letter, with gives a full flavor to the student.
When I was applying for internship, naturally asked adviser to write a letter. I was warned that he procrastinated, and had a tendency to say more than necessary about negatives. However, I had always acted professional in his presence. Still, I cancelled a Fri afternoon meeting to visit a sick parent. What he thought I must be feeling was exaggerated into a long paragraph in a recom letter. To shorten story, I had dept head write me a new letter. He did the same to someone who actually cried when splitting up with her spouse. This prof. was just so unprofessional, and had no clue his 'letters were a kiss of death.</p>
<p>When S was HS junior, he took classes at local U. One of his profs started talking to him about his goals, and was surprised S in HS. He offered to write a supplemental rec., and wrote a flattering letter. It was very formal. I think it could have helped S if he wrote his true impression; that he thought S a college student, ready to attend grad school.</p>
<p>As a sidenote, when I write letters for my interns, those that are high I give copy to the student. Often, they return for future references. It’s always harder to share checklists and letters to the fair/poor students. I hope that I have consistently pointed out areas of weakness and made correcting them a priority</p>
<p>sybbie: Your statement that “a family that really wants and needs to connects with a GC will find a way to do so” betrays a profound ignorance of this kind of inner city school and of people who clearly are less advantaged, at least educationally, than you yourself – I suppose you are lucky only to have experienced environments where a student’s family “connects” with the GC when they want, and moreover knows they must do so. To a large extent, these students do not have college-educated parents or families sophisticated in gaming this kind of admissions system. I do not personally know this young man or his family, but it’s very likely, in fact MORE likely, that his family would not be college-educated, and would not understand, at all, the importance of “connecting with the GC.” This is not Bevery Hills 90210. It is the very fact that the parents of these kids, themselves, haven’t understood the deficiency of this service in their community that has allowed it to persist. People come to this board, in part, to play the angles and get an advantage, and so I can only guess this online community would be up in arms if their children were serviced by such an uninformed guidance department, and had their college apps torpedoed as a result. This is just one more inequity, and another example of what sustains the chasm between the haves and have-nots. Thankfully it is still America --for the very smart, anyway-- and even if that boy went to Holy Cross instead of Tufts, I’m sure he can be a hell of a lawyer.</p>
<p>Considering that I am originally from and spent the majority of my life living in Bedfrod Stuyvesant, Brooklyn my experience in 11206 probably very far removed from 90210. I know this because the situation better than you think because I lived it (coming from a poor family of 10 kids and having neither parent know anything about college yet, my mother was one of the biggest advocates in the education of her children because she taught us that we are not defined by our situation). </p>
<p>I know this from volunteering over 20 years of my time (and my employer’s resources) working on community involvement initiatives with and giving back to the very same population that you claim I Know nothing about; poor inner city schools in brooklyn and harlem many coming from high schools with over 4000 kids a majority of them black and hispanic first generation low income students. I know this so well that I am not simply giving lip service but am back in graduate school to be better able to serve this same population you claim I know nothing about.</p>
<p>I know this a parent who counsels other parents * if you think the cost of an education is expensive, try the cost of ignorance* and one of the biggest gifts you can give your child is learning and teaching them to make infomed decisions.</p>
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<p>well you can sign be up with the group of have-nots.</p>
<p>Sybbie, The communities you are going to serve will be very fortunate, indeed, to have someone like you. What you are doing is very impressive and important --and essential for correcting imbalances. I grew up in similar circumstances to you, although my family was educated; circumstances brought us there and as we all know, fortune can turn on a dime. In the end, it’s the education, knowledge, skill you have that will see you through. What you say is right-on: Poverty can be overcome, its just a glitch; it’s the lack of knowledge and cultural baggage that comes with it that is the hardest mountain to climb. I saw this first hand, as well. I suppose this is why witnessing the behavior of the GC at SHS and the defense of it in the newspaper by the head of guidance has gotten me so annoyed. As you then well know, many of these families do not know, on a basic level, what they need to do to advocate for themselves. I guess you are going to try and change that.</p>
<p>I almost hate to jump in here, but a littel anecdote to show that it could be either situation- maybe the GC knows the kid very well and the kid is every negative thing implied, or perhaps the GC got the wrong impression, either from assumptions or from a teacher.</p>
<p>MY D attended a small private HS, about 100 kids per grade, most every one goes on to university. In 10th grade one of her teachers made a comment about her being too serious and needing to lighten up and enjoy life more. We simply could not figure it out- she has an uproarious sense of humor and a real gift for enjoying the moment- what could he be seeing??</p>
<p>She went on to have him in the same subject for 2 more years. Turns out that first year class was first period and she is NOT a morning person, quieter, more subdued, less fun in the morning would be my D! Also, more likely to allow any emotional upset to be shared with those around her in the moring So, this poor guy only saw her in the morning and had the impression she was too serious. Also, he was a pretty quiet & serious teacher, so the kids were much lower key in his class </p>
<p>After 3 years of teaching her at various times of day, he knew far more about her and wrote delightful letters of rec! If we’d asked him the rec the first year, it could not have been as good!</p>
<p>It could be that this kid has given the impression to some staff that he is everything they said in the letter, but that does not mean that is how he really operates. And, face it, isn’t this what scares us all about the power of the GC/teacher recs??? Do they REALLY know my kid?</p>
<p>Sorry, but I’m just not going to give an overworked GC or school teacher from a smallish poor-ish rural public with zippo previous success at getting kids into national institutions that much unbridled power to do harm whether by commision or omission, whether done with malice or with ignorance. My kid is going to have an informed advocate in the process just like the richies do. Equal playing field? Not hardly. But more equal after my efforts .</p>
<p>We are not going to agree on this one folks. There is a distinct philosophical difference. I think it is a real one. There also seems to be a tendency for those whose kids are already habituated safely in their choice of schools to be more favorable to blind acceptance of these stranger’s evaluations. </p>
<p>I do wonder though, if some of their 'tudes will be adjusted slightly at the graduate or professional school admisssions level by a particularly malignant prof or committee’s evaluation that kept their child from the career to which they were best suited.</p>
<p>As one of those whose kids are already habituated safely in their choice of schools, D has already gone through the process of having to get a professors or deans recommendation, in order to become an undergrad advisor. In addition, she will have to obtain professor recommendations again this year because she is looking to study abroad. </p>
<p>We have in the past and continue to talk about the importance of cultivating meaningful relationships with professors throughout her undergrad years because she will have to draw from this same well for recommendations to graduate or professional schools. She is also fortunate that she attends a school where there is a lot of interaction and relationship building between students and professors and on going dialogues can take place. </p>
<p>But every now and then I put on my HR cap, talk to her like I would a person at work and I tell her that her evaluations should not be a suprise to her because she is the first to know what she has or has not done. If she is requesting and recieving feedback (even if it is constructive criticism that she didnot necessarily want to hear, but it was for her benefit) and acting on it, I do not see her having any problems. </p>
<p>The other side of the coin is that as she gets older I am taking a more of a hands-off approach becasue ultimately she is going to have to take ownership, be responsible and accountable for the work she has done. In addition if I have not taught her or if she has not learned to become resilient, then she is going to have a problem being a effectively functioning adult because everything does not work out how you want it 100% of the time. </p>
<p>Even if this means she she may fall on her butt, I have to look at it the same way I did when teaching her to skate; I extend my hand, help her up ask her if she is going to quit or if she is going to brush herself off and stay in the game.</p>
So, this poor guy only saw her in the morning and had the impression she was too serious. Also, he was a pretty quiet & serious teacher, so the kids were much lower key in his class 
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