<p>^^ I don’t mean to single out any particular schools. It’s an issue at quite a few schools, public and private. It’s often cited as a negative feature of certain large public universities, and, in many people’s minds, there’s an association between the drinking culture and the lack of focus on academics at some of those schools. On the other hand, at some academically rigorous private schools, it’s an attitude of, “Oh, well, work hard, play hard.”
Though I probably did my share of drinking as a student, I don’t find it a particularly attractive feature of the social environment of either type of school. jmo.</p>
<p>pizzagirl,
My attitude is I prefer what my child prefers. If she wanted to go to Ivy, she would have been accepted (all before her and after who were ranked #1 in her HS were accepted along with few others) and we could have paid. She had no inclination to do so and it has worked out very well. I have no preference based on name of school as I know that my child will do her best at any. The same has happened applying to Med. School. However, she got accepted to few very top and expensive Med. schools, but not those Harvard, John Hopkins… as her pre-med advisor wanted her to apply. She did not care, they were too far from home. Advisor has his own professional goals which include placing top kids into very top schools. D. knew it in both cases, applying to UG and Med. School. She followed her own criteria and so far got much more out of her experience than ever expected. So I learned to trust her opinion and respect her wishes. My preferences are irrelevant, but I strongly believe that success and end result depends on student and not the place.</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, you cannot say with any certainty where your D would have been accepted if she didn’t apply, especially when you are talking about super-selective schools. That goes for undergraduate school as well as medical school. I know a kid who was accepted at H and P but waitlisted at D. I know a val with all kids of awards and research experience who was accepted early at Stanford but rejected at Yale. I know a kid who is top 2 in his class with an extremely rigorous course load, great ECs, an ACT of 33 who was just waitlisted at the U of C but got a likely from UVa. I would have sworn he would get in to the U of C. Very intellectual and disciplined kid, perfect for Chicago. The stories go on and on. </p>
<p>Your D is apparently very determined and self-directed and has made decisions that work for her, and that’s great. Why not leave it at that.</p>
<p>I think the path to medical school is a different deal entirely due to the huge cost of medical school and the rather objective standards for admission. If medical school is a near certainty (and plenty of kids bail on that plan) it appears to make a lot of sense to save the money on undergrad school. My son in law (dr.- resident at Vanderbilt) thinks it is stupid to go to an Ivy for medical school (but others feel differently). He chose a full-ride undergrad (private 2nd tier), majored in music, went to a highly-regarded state medical school in a major city (i.e. major traumas, difficult surgeries, cases etc) and got into a prestigious residency program. He still has debt from med school, but much less than many.</p>
<p>^I agree. That is why I have mentioned that historically all kids like my D. (ranked #1 at her HS) have been accepted to HYP including others with a bit lower class rank WHEN THEY APPLIED. In regard to Med. Schools, I do not know either, except that she has been advised to apply to Hrvard…and some top ones that she did apply, she got accepted, but she has not applied to Harvard and John Hopkins.<br>
I have also mentioned many times that if a family’s goal (including child himself) to place a child at Ivy, why not? However, it does not mean at all that other places are inferior, as many of these families are pointing out. I disagree with that, it is misleading and that is the reason for “Why not leave it at that”</p>
<p>Originally Posted by MmeZeeZee:
“…Heck, Berkeley, UCLA, and UVA are harder than some of the Ivies in terms of admissions.”</p>
<p>Really, which Ivy?</p>
<p>
This may well be so if you add “for out of state applicants.” And that would also be the case for something like the Echols Scholar program at U.Va.</p>
<p>Hunt is correct about UVa ,especially for out of state students and those getting Echols or Rodman Scholars (which would also include many instate kids). UVa uses an holistic approach to admissions so it would not be at all inconceivable that a kid could get accepted to an Ivy but rejected by UVa. We have good friends in New York who had a child whose first choice was UVa but he did not get in. He will be graduating from Cornell.</p>
<p>As MOWC points out, often kids change their minds on the grad school plan. My own son was certain he wanted to go to law school, and he is the type of kid who knew his own mind and reliably carried out his plans. Thus we considered saving money on undergrad for that reason. Turns out he not only doesn’t want to go to law school ever, but he isn’t interested in any type of grad school in the near, or intermediate, future. Thank goodness his Ivy undergrad degree in a practical major helped him land a well-paying job! This anecdote proves nothing, other than that this is a multi-faceted decision and there is no right answer for everyone.</p>
<p>But, I still would change the word “better” in the title of the thread to “just as good as.” “Better” is pushing it.</p>
<p>Dadwith2sons, off the top of my head I think Cornell’s admissions rate is something like 13%, and UNC-CH out-of-state is something like 10%. But I could be wrong.</p>
<p>Both my kids went to public high schools. We are in a suburban area, but our hs building is 30+ years old and has never undergone any renovations. Our district has an extremely tight budget, one of the lower per/student expenditures in the state. My D’s hs boyfriend attended a lovely private high school. He told us they had smart-boards in EVERY classroom, among other things. D’s hs had no smartboards. But as D pointed out, she still learned. And she decided she may have learned a few more things than her bf - like the fact that you don’t have to have the newest-latest-fastest thing in order to accomplish your goals. You might have to work harder or think more creatively, which might actually be a good thing. She felt she was more prepared for college than her bf was because she was more adaptable - she was able to scrounge for resources and work with what she had. I think she had a valid point.</p>
<p>I’m wondering if to some degree the same might apply at colleges. Kids at colleges with fewer resources might learn to be more creative in gathering data for papers, etc.</p>
<p>That said, both of my kids are at lovely private colleges. ;)</p>
<p>TheGFG,Congratulations to your son for landing a good job in this economy. That is always good! You mention that his Ivy undergrad degree helped him land a job. I would imagine your son,who was obviously bright and motivated since he was admitted to an Ivy, would have landed a good job coming out of many different types of schools, whether Ivy League,public or other types of privates . Job recruiters are looking for good candidates at many types of schools(unless it is investment banking or things like this which seem to concentrate on only a few schools). The title of the thread is indeed unfortunate. There are so many good options out there, depending on the individual needs/desires of a student and the family. The choices of any are not “better”, just different.</p>
<p>^ Well, actually his job IS in investment banking. I agree with you. He was a student who probably would have done well no matter where he went, which is why we did seriously consider all his options which included the two best state schools. His sister, however, is much more easily influenced by her peer group in the sense that she rates her performance in a relative way compared to those around her. Thus in her case, we definitely wanted an environment with a greater concentration of serious students so she wouldn’t settle for relative superiority but absolute mediocrity. </p>
<p>The way this school choice dilemma was elucidated for us, was that the Ivies/elite schools are a better choice from a risk management perspective. They consistently provide a quality education, and the schools are well-run for the most part. With state schools and lower-tier schools, it is certainly possible to get a good education. However, there are greater risks, some of which have been already outlined: overcrowding, bureaucratic hassles, disinterested peers and roommates, scarcer resources, etc.</p>
<p>TheGFG,If your son was very goal oriented and knew even as a high schooler that he wanted to get into investment banking-then it sounds like you made the right choice for your family. That’s all any of us can do.</p>
<p>"With state schools and lower-tier schools, it is certainly possible to get a good education. However, there are greater risks, some of which have been already outlined: overcrowding, bureaucratic hassles, disinterested peers and roommates, scarcer resources, etc. "</p>
<p>-Way too many assumptions by one who is apparently not very well familiar with state schools. If you choose Ivy/elite, why bash others? Should we start bashing Ivy/elite because we have chosen awesome education at state schools for our kids? Very strange position. Although, on the other hand, there is a positive side to it. Maybe some will listen and application pool to state schools drop? Unfortunately, I am just dreaming, since it has been skyrocketing…by the time my grandkids apply…well, they are already top students, nothing to worry about.</p>
<p>No, sevmom, as I explained in post #389, my son always wanted to go to law school. That was the point–saying one should go to a state school for undergrad in order to save money for grad school, since only the grad school degree matters, is a nice thought except when it doesn’t work out that way. Often kids find 4 years of college is enough for them for a while, or forever.</p>
<p>MiamiDP: This whole thread has been full of people discussing the upsides and downsides of state schools and many have mentioned the same issues as I am–why are you picking on my comments as being ill-informed? And for the record, I live less than a half hour away from two state schools so I know tons of people who attend, have attended, whose children attend, and who are employed by these schools as accountants, professors, etc. I’m not completely ignorant about the topic. Furthermore, I’d hardly call my posts “bashing.”</p>
<p>And I’d say the reverse to you: maybe if we can convince more people that they can get a “better” education at State U than at the Ivies, the application numbers will go down and our kids will have a better chance!</p>
<p>^ I am glad that you insist in you position. The less people applying to state schools, the better for us. Please, continue promoting your view, maybe it will start happenning. On the other hand, I will try to shut up.</p>
<p>We all like to justify the road we have taken. </p>
<p>I agree with TheGFG that her son’s choice provided him with better options. It is the reason why I am not a fan of picking an UG for its particular major’s ranking, most people change their majors or career aspiration while in college.</p>
<p>Quote from Post #109,
"gadad - No way you live in East Bumblebutt unless you can answer “TRUE” to all of the following statements:</p>
<p>(1) There are no traffic lights in town
(2) K-12 is all in one building
(3) The HS graduating class is under 50 students
(4) … none of whom will be attending a private university
(5) The town doctor speaks english as a second language
(6) You can still buy lard in the Economy 3-gallon tub "</p>
<p>The town (or village) I am currently living in fits 3 (1, 2, 3)of of 6 listed above.
On # 4, we do have small private college nearby our village, so that one is out. On #5, we have about 3-6% of the population been born outside of the US. On # 6, heck, we have one bar for every two street block and a lot of cheese-head running around…</p>
<p>On the OP’s topic: We select college based on our goal/objective, needs. For folks who are living paycheck to paycheck, net cost is important. For folks who afraid of having a future redneck in-laws, will try to pick blue-blood schools. For those who want to sit on the bench of the Supreme Court, try Ivies. By statistics, odds are in your favor. If you want to go to the Wall Street, State Schools do not have as good of the track record. Life is full of choices. There is no need to pick on our fellow CC’ers on their choices. As for our family, S1 will most likely go to a Flagship State School. So far, he was accepted by 4 of those. Some are better than others. S1 will be successful and happy in any one of them. As for Ivies? He applied a few, reluctantly, under the parental guidance. His priority is warmer weather and abundance of pretty girls…Go figure!</p>
<p>TheGFG,Sorry,I did miss that you said your son initially wanted to go to law school.You are very right that some kids do change their minds.It is very fortuitous that your son did end up at an Ivy since he ended up in investment banking. That is one of the careers that an Ivy would definitely be the best choice. Glad it worked out for your son.
kxc1961,Good luck to your son.Sounds like he clearly knows what he wants! That’s funny.Pretty girls and warm weather.What’s not to like!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Uh, afraid not. The fewer people applying to public schools, the fewer legislators think higher education is a worthy investment of tax dollars. The fewer top students applying, the fewer top professors accept positions, or stay on faculty.</p>
<p>The GFG is correct about the risk factor. I have no argument whatever with the position that some top students can get exactly what they need and want from some public institutions. However, risk and cost go hand in hand. That is how it works for a lot of things. Parents and prospective students should ask a lot of questions, and look at the specifics of programs of interest to them. If they want to do research early in their undergraduate studies, they should be arranging an appointment with the director of undergraduate studies and asking specific questions, etc.</p>
<p>I also agree that the risks are greater if a student leaves high school without a clear ultimate goal, or a goal that may not be realistic for her/his skill set (e.g. all those engineering prospects who aren’t really very comfortable with math). That part wasn’t a great problem for our family. Our kids pursued out of class interests throughout high school that helped them know what their interests were, and where their talents lay.</p>
<p>One of the problems with discussions like this thread is that everyone has a different idea of what is ‘good’ or ‘better’ because we don’t all have the same idea of what the ultimate goal of formal education should be. The other problem is the lack of good data, or the ‘misuse’ of available data.
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