<p>I have to report that being at an Ivy doesn’t necessarily mean smooth sailing and nurturing. My son did NOT like his freshman year experience at Penn. He had a few terrible professors and found the whole atmosphere much less intellectual and nurturing than his prep boarding school. He missed the close faculty relationships and mentoring he had at boarding school. He is a VERY independent and assertive (too assertive…) young man, but Penn was a disappointment for many of the reasons people are criticizing state schools. What he DID do (after doing transfer apps and getting into a few good places) was make the decision to make Penn work and was VERY aggressive about getting into some upper level classes before he really should have been allowed in them, choosing professors better (he took 3 classes from one adjunct prof over the next 3 years and landed some guest columnist spots for the city paper) and, in general, figured out how to make the system work. My point is that all is not perfect even at the hallowed Ivy schools! On the other hand, I can’t remember one serious complaint about Rice from my other kid. It seemed to work pretty flawlessly.</p>
<p>zapfino, I agree about department secretaries and being nice. The department secretary ended up probably being very helpful to son and getting a class. I do think because he was persistent but respectful she may have helped. If he had gone in asking for help but acting entitled or like a jerk, most people are not as inclined to want to help.People skills!</p>
<p>H and I have been wondering what we will do if S2 is admitted to Princeton. His current top choice is the U of Minn Honors program. The director of the Honors program has personally called S2 two or three times and his merit aid puts our total out of pocket at $3000 per year. Our income is such that there will be zero money coming from Princeton. We could “find” the money, but in this current economy I am not sure if that is the wisest decision.</p>
<p>I have read the last 24 pages of this thread with great interest. Finally something clicked. I WANT my child to have to “advocate” for himself versus “having his education brought to him”. Certainly this will create a few bumps in the road, but navigating those bumps are also an important part of his education. And hopefully he will be the cream that rises to the top…just waiting to be skimmed off by top grad schools.</p>
<p>Kajon good luck with whatever decision you make! but for some input, my S2 had a full ride here instate but he wanted a different school which despite merit aid would have left us with about 20-30K out of pocket per year…our decision came down to finances especially as he wants med school or md/phd program. He was not a happy camper…and we had a few unpleasant months. First year is almost over and he is doing great, while he wont openly tell me he “loves” it…he has excelled in gpa, has already started undergrad research, loves his profs etc… so depends on your child, thankfully i have a son that will make the most of a situation</p>
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<p>Completely correct. In our daughter’s case, both parents have been profs at Big State Us, and one still is. If she doesn’t figure out how to navigate, we will have to do some soul searching.</p>
<p>Our state’s flagship has an office, and an advising/tutoring program for first generation college students. It helps, but I know for a fact (because I was first gen at Big State U) that there are myriad hurdles for those who hail from backgrounds where college-talk around the dinner table never, ever happened.</p>
<p>^ Of course, a first-gen student would need to learn the system at a complex private research university like Harvard, too—unless, you’re one of the Winklevoss twins. Then you might get in to see the university president directly, before he blows you off!</p>
<p>We all would like our children to learn how to navigate through the adult world. But there is a difference between learning how to work with people and within organizations to achieve desired results, which kids at Ivies will have also have to learn, and a harrowing, exhausting experience akin to the one in that airline commerical where a huge ball of red tape chases the businessman through the airport and nearly bowls him over. Some things are just hassles, plain and simple, because after you’ve dealt with one or two such problems, the educational value has been mined already. </p>
<p>But then, I’ve never appreciated the argument used to justify injustice, unfairness, or incompetence which states “Hey, this is the way the world is, life isn’t fair, so suck it up and deal with it.” I’d prefer my student spend her time learning by studying, by participating in campus organizations, or by doing an internship or research–not by spending her life trying to convince state workers to assist her. I’d prefer not to pay for a poor to mediocre experience just to teach her that incompetence and ignorance are everywhere.</p>
<p>PS–MOWC: When we dealt with Penn when D was being recruited, we found them to be really disorganized and wrote them off for that very reason. So not all Ivy/elite schools are well run either, but the odds are better!</p>
<p>The financial aspect is becoming more and more of an issue for many families. Home prices declining in many places,potential medical stuff, helping elderly parents,etc. It is tough. Most kids as well as parents are having to/have had to adapt to the new reality.</p>
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<p>Well, be warned. The one (just one) time I mentioned that as a factor in why I preferred not to be full pay, despite what the formulas said, I was very rudely blasted by some jerk for dragging in personal obligations…</p>
<p>But I’m glad to see there is somebody else who thinks that is a legitimate alternative use for the family funds.</p>
<p>And please, no rude comments from anybody. I’m not trying to take the debate off into another direction, and I’m not looking for kudos, either. Just between me and sevmom.</p>
<p>The GFG, I think your point in post 367 is very good. When I put my son in a small private school for four years because the middle and junior high schools refused to offer any advanced classes (egalitarianism run amok), I was criticized by acquaintances for trying to shield my son from learning to deal with ‘average people’.</p>
<p>However, I think the problems you are relating at your flagship U. may be a bit more severe than is the case everywhere. I know students at Flagship U here occasionally have to jump over some roadblocks, but it isn’t an endless task, or a daily headache.</p>
<p>TheGFG- Our recruiting stuff at Penn went really well and the whole process was smooth (except the part about my son being injured and never getting to do his sport at Penn…but that wasn’t Penn’s fault). It was the math TAs and some of the intro classes that were a big disappointment.</p>
<p>^^^^^There’s nothing necessarily wrong with having to having to seek out a university’s resources for yourself. After all, research universities are quite complex organizations, whether Harvard or Minnesota. The difference might lie in how receptive and supportive the university is. At a resource-rich private university, they might say, “Sure, we’ll give you money to photograph polar bears in the Arctic over the semester break. We have a special fund just for undergraduates to do that sort of thing!” Whereas, at Minnesota, they’re likely to say, “What! You want to go the Arctic! Forget it! You’re already there!”</p>
<p>When I was first on CC, a number of posters (I think, Berkeley engineering students, though some Cornell engineering students had the same attitude) used to comment that having to go through the school of hard knocks at their universities was a a good thing because it prepared you for the real world. I don’t find any inherent value in that, and thought it was just a post hoc rationalization of what they went through. There’s a big difference between having to take the initiative and being subjected to a “sink or swim” academic environment.</p>
<p>You can find incompetent administrators anywhere, I am sure … To me, it’s not so much about the administration as it is about the peer group of students - and to some extent, it’s not even about the true “smartness” of the students, as it is their seriousness of purpose. I like schools where there is a high concentration of seriousness of purpose, and I think (in general) smaller elite schools do better than larger state flagships on that dimension. Having said that, there are always exceptions that prove the rule – for example, I think Michigan and Berkeley certainly have enough students with seriousness of purpose. But at some other flagships, esp those with relatively low entrance requirements? It’s hard to say that that is in uniformly high evidence.</p>
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<p>Ba-dump bump! Will you be here all week, zapfino? Should I try the shrimp cocktail?</p>
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This may be invalid but - wouldn’t the ‘typical’ ivy student, who is certainly already quite accomplished in so many ways in order to gain admission in the first place, have few issues ‘advocating for himself/herself’ and be able to navigate what might be some bumps in the road at the non-ivy, assuming the particular state U is different in this regard than the particular ivy? If not - really? - they’re at the ivy and wouldn’t be capable of doing this with relatively little pain - although it might be annoying?</p>
<p>Another point - this thread is debating somewhat the merit and value of the ivy vs. the ‘state college’ for some particular (not all) areas (like possibly engineering at UCB vs. engineering at an ivy). However, because of the selectivity of the ivies, wouldn’t the vast majority of those admits not have the alternative of the generic ‘state school’ but rather, probably their pick of the top state schools in the country - some of which are highly selective, though probably not to the degree of teh ivy, but highly selective nevertheless? For California aren’t they really choosing between the ivy and UCB/UCLA rather than the ivy and Borrego Springs state U (I made this up to not offend anyone)? So while the selectivity and corresponding generalization that those selected are more interested in their studies and all around more intellectually stimulating people, which is being much bandied on many of these posts as a reason to choose the ivy over the ‘state’, can be argued, there’s a degree of difference we’re talking about as well. In fact, the degree of difference in the academic qualifications of the students between UCLA and Borrego Springs State may be, and likely is, greater than the difference between those at UCLA and the ivy (and of course then we’d have to determine which ivy since there’s a difference between them as well).</p>
<p>^^ pizzagirl, the winter weather in Minnesota is no yoke, as the Swedes say!</p>
<p>^^ ucsd<em>ucla</em>dad, i think both of those are valid points.
Just as the comparison isn’t necessarily between the student at the tippy-top private university vs. the public flagship (though for some, it will be), it’s also not between the student at the public flagship vs. Borrego Springs State U or the private university vs. Borrego Springs.</p>
<p>Yes, those are excellent points.</p>
<p>From my perspective, I"ve simply been assuming the same student with the variable being the school itself. But, yes, I do see that there is another conversation here, as well.</p>
<p>I also think the argument is one of small degrees (pun intended), but it is the end of March. I’ve noticed in the little while I’ve been here that THIS conversation is the March Madness of CC. We’ve all gotta find our final four. :)</p>
<p>zapfino: " I don’t have a tight definition for this. In general, I’m referring to schools where a significant number of social activities revolve around drinking. In some cases, excessive drinking might result in student hospitalizations, deaths, etc. due to drinking.</p>
<p>Certainly, when talking about any given school, we’re taking about stereotypes to some extent. Nonetheless, there is some basis for those stereotypes. There are more than a few public universities that have a significant drinking cultures. I’d include those schools with reputations as “party schools”. While I recognize that this culture doesn’t apply to the whole student bodies at those schools, those reputations that are not entirely undeserved. And then there are some private schools where drinking is a major social activity. I happened to mention Hamilton and Colgate, based on what I’ve heard about them over the years. I don’t think it’s entirely inaccurate. I could have mentioned Bowdoin, e.g., A-Team calls summit to discuss drinking culture - The Bowdoin Orient or some other schools."</p>
<p>I feel Colgate and Hamilton are no better or worse than several other NY State private colleges when it comes to having pervasive drinking cultures. I couldn’t find recent evidence that either school has major drinking problems. Neither school is on lists of top party schools. One drawback that ties them together seems to be there is nothing much else to do besides drink during the wintertime on both campuses. That can be said of hundreds of other colleges too. </p>
<p>As you know, studies done more than 3 or 4 years ago are outdated since there is a turnover of the entire student body. Both schools have new programs designed to stimulate non-alcoholic events for all students. Both schools subscribe to the slogan “study hard, play hard” as does some of the Ivies.</p>
<p>I think some capable, motivated students are choosing between community college and other public u’s also. The community college can be a way to start out at school at lower cost(and closer to home if you have family issues) and then transfer to another school to complete your degree. I remember about 5 years ago getting some presents wrapped at a Barnes and Noble by a couple of community college students that were raising funds for their school’s engineering club(they had sponsored a gift wrapping table). This was in Virginia and both students were looking to go to a 4 year school after community college-UVa,VT,etc. Both of these students(one male ,one female) came across as very articulate,intelligent,motivated and confident.I had an engineering student at the time at UVa so spent a little time talking with them about school,engineering,etc. I didn’t pry into why they were at community college instead of a 4 year school but I would imagine it had to do with finances or personal,family responsibilities.I came away very impressed with these students. I would like to think they met their transfer goals and have graduated from college by now with engineering degrees. They were both impressive but probably did not have the financial or familial support that alot of our kids have been lucky to have. There are many different paths to learning out there.</p>