When will people realize that state flagships can be better than the Ivy League?

Parents Forum
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<p>Maybe the Cheesecake Factory near me is better than others, but reasonable minds can disagree.</p>

<p>But I was interested in the comment that “a similar student can get an excellent education at both.” I think this is true if we are talking about an extremely motivated student. I’m not so sure it’s as true of a student who is less driven. I know kids (and my son is one of them, to some degree) who respond to what other kids around them are doing. They may be smart and engaged, but they may not be competitive by nature. I think a kid like that may do a lot better in an environment with very accomplished peers. I observed this with my son when he went from the local middle school to a magnet high school program–he stepped up his game, not just in academics but in his other activities, too. So I guess this is another element of “fit” that parents should consider–I think this is also relevant to the large vs. small issue.</p>

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<p>I really do agree with that Hunt. I think the student who is the extroverted type who has no problem seeking out mentors and has enough intellect AND charisma to attract professors to him/her will be able to achieve the same education at UIUC engineering as the one at Princeton. OTOH, I also believe this is a rare student. </p>

<p>That is not to say that plenty of bright and engaged and well-educated kids aren’t coming out of all of our publics, they are. It’s just to say that, as parents, we may prefer, if we can afford it, to put our kids in a position to succeed. There is a strong ROI on a private school education for those who can afford it. For those who can’t, gving kids an assertiveness training seminar the summer before they start school might be a good investment. JMO</p>

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<p>Here’s another question to think about: will your kid be randomly assigned roommates? And if so, what will he do if they want to spend their evenings playing video games? Will he play, or go do something worthwhile? This is something else to ask about the honors college–it might make a big difference whether your kid lives in an honors dorm or not.</p>

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<p>The husband of one of my best friends is the director of remedial services at our state flagship. The university has to beg the professors to try not to fail more than half of their students in introductory classes like freshman English. This man despairs at how woefully unprepared the incoming students are, and this is a school most people would consider pretty good–not a UVA, CAL, or UMich, but on the upper end of state schools. </p>

<p>This family sent their two older children to Ivies. The youngest did not get in, and thus for financial considerations ( free tuition) is now at this flagship. Such was the administrative horror of just the month of August, that last minute they tried to enroll her in a different university to which she had also been admitted. From then on, there is a new red tape situation monthly that the student has had to deal with and this is a child who has the benefit of guidance from a parent who works inside the system. My friend has to constantly instruct her D on how to be assertive and take initiative to get what she needs and wants. Some things they have given up on and have provided for her themselves, eg. a functional lock on her dorm door.</p>

<p>The D of another friend is also attending the same university. Both of her parents are loyal grads, but have admitted that the education there is not what it once was and they would no longer recommend the school. Their student is in her 3rd living situation already and is just a freshman. She is a nice, serious student and has had to deal with horrific roommates who have no interest in actually studying. And guess what? She WAS in an honors dorm. The second of her roommates was a minority student whom the school moved into the honors dorm to help her discipline herself to study, since she was unsuccessful in that regard in her previous dorm. This was a failed experiment, unfortunately, and my friend’s D suffered for it. Furthermore, this family had to threaten to pull their own donations, as well as those of their employers, in order to get the school to give their D what had been promised to her as a member of the honors program.</p>

<p>There are certainly kids who can make it work. Both of these students will ultimately do so, I’m sure, but I shudder to think about what happens to the average kid with average motivation and average parental support.</p>

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<p>“She is a nice, serious student and has had to deal with horrific roommates who have no interest in actually studying.”</p>

<p>-Strongly recommend Honors dorms, which are not limited to Honors students. My D. has lived in Honors dorms for 2 years, her roommate was also valedictorian. No complaints, especially as they were different majors, different schedules, both involved a lot in campus life, so D. had a room to herself for long periods of time, including most weekends. Was nice, although they did not become friends, neither cared, they were in thier own group with similar interests. Then upper classmen usually move out of campus.</p>

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<p>Miami- Note that the dorm in TheGFG’s example WAS an honors dorm!</p>

<p>My niece had similar problems at Penn State. She was an engineering major, and, for the most part, liked her 4 years there, but there were a LOT of glitches due to the administrative red tape. My sister (her mother) was NOT impressed with how many things were handled.</p>

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<p>Well, it is always a matter of luck, no matter where you go. Enough bad stuff about Ivy’s in news in past several years. We were very lucky with D’s experience at state public, including the most crucial experience applying to Med. School, as UG’s pre-med committee has a major role in this process. I understand that D’s process was much smoother than others, some at Ivy’s. I also believe that she has chosen correct place for herself after very careful considerations including many criteria (we had huge spreadsheet with all her UG’s, which was much more detailed than similar one with her Medical Schools), several visits, overnights, talking to current students…</p>

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<p>To some extent, it’s the difference between regular and honors / AP classes in the high school setting – the benefit is that you’re also around smarter peers. My D is in a regular, not an honors, English class (English was the subject she was least interested in pushing herself in - she’s more mathy / sciency). Honestly, most the kids in the class don’t do their homework, the classroom discussions are dumbed down to their level - D’s using it as her “time to relax mentally and not stress” period, but I wouldn’t want all of her classes to be that way. Yes, if they are reading Shakespeare, you can delve into Shakespeare on your own time and get more from it - but there is a difference between reading Shakespeare in a classroom full of students who are engaged, want to be there, want to push the material farther, and reading Shakespeare in a classroom full of students who are just there in English class because they gotta be and where are those Sparknotes, anyway. </p>

<p>I think an extroverted student could do well at a large state flagship. I think an introverted student might have a much harder time finding his or her tribe. And <em>for me</em> I value the presence of the tribe, which is what makes the elite schools worth the price tag, <em>for me and mine</em>.</p>

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<p>“The only reason it is important that a good flagship is a solid education for a solid student is because it is all some students can afford.”</p>

<p>Well, that’s certainly an important reason. It’s not the only reason, however. In any number of cases, the flagship may offer the best available program in a field. </p>

<p>“But anyone who believes it is easier to be at a public flagship, with the exception of a few like UNC and UVA, than an elite school just doesn’t understand the difference.”</p>

<p>That’s the key point. If a public university is the most feasible option (usually for financial reasons), then certain adverse educational features of that environment need to be mitigated.
A serious, motivated student can obtain an education at a public university as good as or better than he can at a private university, but it’s not going to be as easy to do so. </p>

<p>“At the private schools, they bring the education to the student. At the state schools, the student has to go out and find it.”</p>

<p>In general, that is probably true, but it really varies, depending on the school. For example, some elite private research universities have fabulous resources, but no one will hold the student’s hand. He/she has to take the initiative to seek out those resources. Students at some elite private universities also might experience a significant degree of bureaucracy. I heard this said of Cornell and Columbia, for example. Though it is probably much more common at larger public universities, some public universities run relatively smoothly in terms of a students having to deal with a lot of bureaucracy. </p>

<p>One relatively common adverse feature of public universities is being shut out of, or waitlisted, for desired/needed courses. This may be less of an issue, however, for students in the honors programs, since priority registration is a common perk in such programs. </p>

<p>“There is a strong ROI on a private school education for those who can afford it. For those who can’t, gving kids an assertiveness training seminar the summer before they start school might be a good investment.”</p>

<p>Good idea. I worried about this with my daughter, since her natural tendency is not to be the most assertive person. However, this hasn’t been an issue. In her honors college, she could opt to have a faculty mentor. She chose the chair of her department. He’s taken her out to lunch several times, and the university provides funds for these sort of activities. (I believe the mentor program is not limited to the honors college; any freshman can participate, though they might not have the same awareness of it.) She’s also taken advantage of faculty office hours, and her professors are always responsive to email. The other day she ran into a professor in a local Starbucks. He edits an international journal and several internships available for undergraduates. Though she’s not in his department, he invited her to stop by and see him to talk about a possible internship. </p>

<p>“Here’s another question to think about: will your kid be randomly assigned roommates?”</p>

<p>That’s a realistic concern. Many public universities offer the option of being in an “academic” dorm or on an “academic” floor of the dorm. Honors colleges often have their own dorms. Some of the larger public universities establish thematic housing in an attempt to form “living and learning” communities. Thematic housing might be organized around language or international interests; environmental interests; etc. A number of universities, both private and public, establish chem-free dorms. I don’t think the problem of social distractions in dorms is necessarily a problem entirely limited to public universities, however. It’s always a good idea for students anywhere to seek out study places on campus.</p>

<p>One thing to consider regarding honors dorms is whether students choose to live there after freshman year. In some cases, after freshman year, students are eligible to choose other housing options, university apartments. If the honors students disperse in this way, it tends to break up the cohesiveness of the honors student cohort.</p>

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<p>Yes, I stand corrected. You are right.</p>

<p>Glad to hear your daughter is getting what she wants and needs.</p>

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That’s a good point, and something to research when looking at honors colleges. It can go beyond preferences–I believe at some of them other restrictions may not apply. (In the old days, at least, Echols scholars at U.Va. had substantially more freedom in choosing courses than other students.)</p>

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<p>If one cares about peers around, there are plenty of valedictorians from private HS’s at state schools, people who would be accepted to Ivy’s if they applied.<br>
By the same token, college classes are extremely hard no matter where they are. This is not just by my own D’s admission but by other very top kids who ended up going to state for one reason or another. In fact, D’s first college Bio class used the same textbook as her Honors Bio at HS (after which she had AP Bio with “5” on exam and very high score in Bio SAT II). However, she said, that material in this very first Bio (that she was thinking about skipping because of her AP credit) was so hard that good number of very top kids have changed their plan to go to Med. School.<br>
The higher level of Bio were even harder with more kids falling out of pre-med track.<br>
Do not kid yourself thinking that it is easy at state school. School still cares about its reputation and percentage of applicants to Grad. School who got accepted and where they got accepted after graduation. </p>

<p>But again, if one want to go to Ivy, why not? If one does not have this goal, he is going to have good education as well without Ivy name attached to it and so what?</p>

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<p>“If one cares about peers around, there are plenty of valedictorians from private HS’s at state schools, people who would be accepted to Ivy’s if they applied.”</p>

<p>Again, it’s about concentration. No one doubts plenty of valedictorians and general smart kids go to state flagships. Depending on the particular state flagship, however, its reputation, part of the country, selectivity, etc. there may or may not be a strong concentration of such students. Or the general ethos of the state flagship may or may not be heavily academic in nature.</p>

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<p>^This kids stay together, they go to the same classes, are in the same Honors programs…intern together in Research labs, become friends, get accepted to the same Med./Grad. schools…they are not bored, they are greatly challenged, they study together… Be specific in your assumptions, general statements are not applicable.</p>

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<p>See, I don’t see what’s so great about “here you are at a big school, and only x% of this group will have the same level of commitment to academics as you do.” I prefer an environment that is more “saturated” with those committed students, for lack of a better term.</p>

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<p>I agree completely with this. Someone above, while elaborating on Hunt’s comment, mentioned being introverted vs extroverted. I’m not sure that it is crucial to be an extrovert. What is important is being motivated enough to identify professors who can be of use to you when applying for internships or providing on-campus research activities, who will forward your name to the offices in charge of nominations for scholarships and awards, and so on. One should have enough self-confidence and motivation to send an e-mail to the professor in charge of a course if the they are told the class is ‘closed’ due to over-enrollment. One of my daughter’s friends at another public university was lamenting that a course she really wanted, and needed if she does a semester abroad next year, was closed. I asked her if she had sent an e-mail to the prof. explaining the situation. It had never occurred to her that she was “allowed” to do that. She did, and she was allowed to enroll. </p>

<p>Focus and drive, and perhaps a little bit of courage, can make all the difference.</p>

<p>The freshman housing issue at many public schools is not insignificant. We’ve heard enough horror stories that we were quite relieved when our daughter arranged to be roommates with a girl she knew from high school–a dead-serious valedictorian with considerable drive and ambition. And a very nice girl, to boot. Believe me, I felt very free to ignore the standard advice on cc not to room with a friend from high school.</p>

<p>So far, the daughter at Big Flagship U. has not been shut out of any classes, honors or otherwise. A problem has arisen for next fall, though, as there is only one section of the not so popular foreign language she takes as an elective, and it looks like it will conflict with another odd-ball class she needs for a potential minor. I don’t think this problem stands as evidence that cut-backs are causing problems for her, though. Neither of those classes ever had more than one section. (And some of the Ivy and equivalent schools do not offer the language, and none of them offer the other field.)</p>

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<p>But Miami, someone just presented a case where the honors college didn’t provide that kind of environment, and you yourself said that at least with roommates in an honors dorm that was a matter of luck. You’re now making a generalized statement that all honors programs offer all kids enrolling in them an environment where all of the students are friends, study together, attend the same classes, and so forth. For your daughters, at the schools they chose, the honors program provided that kind of experience. For other students at that school, or for students at other public universities, that isn’t necessarily so. </p>

<p>In short: it depends.</p>

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<p>“See, I don’t see what’s so great about “here you are at a big school, and only x% of this group will have the same level of commitment to academics as you do.” I prefer an environment that is more “saturated” with those committed students, for lack of a better term.”</p>

<p>I think everyone would prefer that. But you’re missing the key point. That’s not going to be a feasible option for a lots of serious, motivated students. They’re going to go to their flagship public university, for financial or other reasons. That’s great if you have an option to go to whatever private university is your best choice, but if you can’t, then it becomes a matter of how you optimize the option you have.</p>

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<p>midmo, son at VT engineering also had to advocate for himself recently-had to do a force/add type of thing and go through his advisor to get it done. He is not introverted but also not particularly extroverted either-just a normal guy- had to show some persistence,motivation but he got what he needed.I was actually proud of him that he was able to figure out how to get that done. It would of course been easier to not have that kind of “glitch” to begin with but it all worked out and he was persistent but respectful in trying to get his problem taken care of. I think navigating “glitches” is good training for the real world. Re:Honors:son was invited to apply but chose not to. So, even honors stuff is probably not the answer for every kid.</p>

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<p>“One should have enough self-confidence and motivation to send an e-mail to the professor in charge of a course if the they are told the class is ‘closed’ due to over-enrollment.”</p>

<p>That’s good advice. I’m not sure that it’s always a matter of the student’s self-confidence; sometimes, it’s a matter of just knowing how the system works or where to get the information you need to access resources. This might be outside the experience of some otherwise very smart students and motivated students. I would imagine that students whose parents are professionals or college-educated might be better advice and guidance about how to navigate the system than a first-gen student.</p>

<p>My impression is that at some very good public universities, e.g., Michigan and Berkeley, that course waitlists are fairly common. I would guess that the students are savvy enough to get around the barriers, but I’m not entirely sure how flexible the system is.</p>

<p>In my work, I often consult with state agencies. I’m convinced that one of the reasons things don’t change in state government agencies is that no one seems to know who has the authority to make a decision. I wonder if this sometimes applies to public universities as well. Or, as I learned in graduate school, often the people with the real power and information about how to get things done are the department secretaries; they can cut through a lot of red tape for you. So, another piece of advice for students: Get to know the department secretaries and always be nice to them!</p>