When will people realize that state flagships can be better than the Ivy League?

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Well,it hasn’t worked out yet, he’s still a hs senior Thanks for the nice words.</p>

[Gourmetmom]

<p>I wasn’t referring to the content of your post in any way, midmo. The Dodge Dart somehow stuck in my brain, so I used it as an illustration. I agree with your point that we all should make our own choices about how we spend our money and not worry about what others think. I respect those who make responsible financial decisions - what works for one family may not be appropriate for another. However, I’ve met many people who somehow cannot see it this way - people who have a big problem with someone would spend money on something they don’t value. I was once at a party and an acquaintance said to the group I was with, “Spending $1,000 on a handbag is a sin.” Well, I made sure my Gucci bag was well tucked under my chair, hoping that she wouldn’t notice it. Why is that any different if I criticized her inexpensive bag? My children all attend private schools - I pay over $100K a year in tuition, which I can easily afford. I know many people who tsk tsk that it’s not worth it and their “value based” educational choices are far superior. My point is that it’s not fair to judge from either side of the fence.</p>

[ACCecil]

<p>I agree with Dad’s post #35. </p>

<p>What school is “better” depends on a bunch of things not the least of which is net cost, the diversity of the student body, or lack thereof depending on what you want, weather, programs, distance from home, amount of work it takes to get out (some want a prison camp so that they can brag about it and others want a summer camp and still more want something in between) and yada yada. </p>

<p>Sometimes it just depends on the kid. </p>

<p>My oldest son doesn’t know what he wants to study yet. He is a junior in high school. I can describe for him all day and night what I THINK certain careers are like but I am not an expert on everything. He wants to study either exercise science + nutrition or sports management + business or Poly Sci + International Relations. </p>

<p>He wants to be a two-year college professor or have an actual job. </p>

<p>I find it fascinating that none of the Ivies, except Penn, teach business to undergrads. Well, there you go. If you want to study business look elsewhere. And, of course, the Ivies sure as heck don’t teach sports management. </p>

<p>He doesn’t like cold weather so that took Lehigh right off the list. </p>

<p>Anything north of North Carolina probably won’t work for that same reason. </p>

<p>Long story short, he can go to the local CommCollege for two years and get exposed to exerercise science and nutrition classes, business classes and government and poly sci classes and find out which program really makes him happy. Then he can go to FSU in sunny Tallahassee for pennies since it is in state. </p>

<p>Oh, did I mention FSU has respected programs in exercise science and nutrition, sports management and business and political science? All in one school. The CommCollege he will go to has an excellent honors program. </p>

<p>If he went to a school like Elon or Wake Forest, which we both love, he would have to make up his mind right out of high school for the most part. There’d be pressure and risk and it just doesn’t fit. FSU has an honors program but we are probably done with honors once CommCollege is over and a campus in Panama for overseas studies. </p>

<p>There is a lot to like about publics. </p>

<p>At least for us. </p>

<p>If Princeton had a business program and if he could stretch to get in, that would be one thing, but Princeton doesn’t so what are you going to do?</p>

[vicariousparent]

<p>Looks like we have a consensus emerging. And the consensus comes down to:</p>

<p>It is all about the fit.</p>

<p>A college has to fit the student’s abilities, interests, social preferences, and it has to fit the parents’ wallet and their willingness to pay. </p>

<p>A college that fits the student is the #1 school for that student. UNL or Harvard, doesn’t matter. What matters is fit.</p>

[ParentOfIvyHope]

<p>

Perhaps a nicer way to put it is that the more money you have, the more your focus shifts from value to quality. Most of us care about both, but the balance between them is different. Again, this is why I wouldn’t buy a Rolex, because I just can’t see the value. Perhaps if I were super-rich, I would want a Rolex for its quality.

</p>

<p>Not necessarily, there are people who have passion for things in the life and will be ready to pay for quality irrespective of the money they have.
There are people who shell out money without a second thought for a car (Ferrari, Lamburgini). Similarly people shell out money for watches (Patek Philippe, Rolex) or other finer things in life without being rich. </p>

<p>Similarly there are people who can spend any amount on a quality education without a wink. Even though they might have to compromise on other finer things in life e.g. waiting to buy a Patek Philips (satisfying the need with a Rolex) watch.</p>

<p>So in a nut shell when comparing quality of education, compare the quality and not the value.</p>

<p>If you are looking for value then you might just ask the child to go to community college for 2 year and transfer to state flagship. Which will provide the most value for the buck.</p>

[sevmom]

<p>vicariousparent. I agree. Thanks.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

Uh, no. Equating education with ROI … as a universal measurement tool … is foolishness. With that as social policy, we’d all be driving Corolla’s and living in trailer parks.

Eh? If living in a trailer park is so unthinkable for you, I’m sure you have more than enough legitimate reasons to justify the extra cost of wherever you do live.

I don’t mean this to sound snotty, but why should someone who can pay full-freight “have” to undertake rational cost-benefit analysis if they don’t want to?</p>

<p>For example, I have a friend whose daughter got a very significant scholarship to USC, and also got into Vanderbilt. The family had experience with both schools, as mother went to USC and older sister was at Vanderbilt. Similarly rated schools, no major differences in the area that the student was interested in that would have tilted the balance one way or the other. They instructed their daughter to make the decision based on what SHE wanted, and not let the scholarship impact her, since they were able to pay the full freight. Why shouldn’t they have done that? Yes, other families might say “Wow, I can’t turn down a very significant scholarship for full freight at a similarly-rated school - go with USC, kid.” But so what? What do other people’s financial circumstances have to do with it?

I discussed this in my earlier post. No, I can’t tell anyone what to do. However, forums like CC are entirely pointless if we aren’t going to present cogent arguments on some issue that does not have a factually correct answer. There is educational value for those who don’t have a fixed position on the issue in observing our discourse.

As for OOS at a public? I, personally, would have paid OOS for UVA, Berkeley, Michigan, UNC, and maybe a few others if mine had been so inclined towards larger schools. I’d have a harder time paying OOS for an Iowa, Kansas, Ohio State and would have had a really hard time if we were talking something like Nebraska, unless there were some truly extenuating circumstance such as a unique program only available there.</p>

<p>How did I communicate that to my children? I think they just always knew.
Why does my personal line between mediocre and elite matter, though? To you, that is.

It matters because I don’t think you really would “fund whatever college education our children want / can get into” “completely irrespective of cost.” You can say that only because you were confident that your kids would make a decision within your own personal guidelines. To be frank, it seems to me that you already performed a cost-benefit analysis and concluded that some schools are worth the additional cost over your state flagship (UIUC?) and some are not.

At one point, you <em>can’t</em> make a rational cost-benefit analysis at this kind of level. For some families, they’d say $40K is doable and $60K isn’t, so go with the $40K. But if I don’t have to, why do I need to?

The only way to maximize satisfaction is to decide whether the preferred school exceeds the opportunity cost of the extra $20k. You can’t make that decision 100% objectively, but it’s certainly something to consider.</p>

<p>Why consider it? Because if the opportunity cost is higher than the benefits available at preferred U, you’d end up better off in the long run choosing the cheaper school.</p>

<p>Obviously, that opportunity cost will be lower for families with large assets. Bill Gates probably wouldn’t notice any difference.

Do you do a complete cost-benefit RoI analysis for every product you consume? Do you always buy store brand garbage bags? Do you always shop around for every item of clothing or footwear? </p>

<p>People need to realize that for some families cost is not a factor that goes into the equation. At least not at current levels of cost. The difference between $0 and $50,000 /yr is not significant enough for some families.

Well, time has value and can also be considered in the calculation. I don’t shop five stores before buying garbage bags because the cost in terms of time and gasoline would exceed any possible savings.</p>

<p>If anyone reading this has enough money that $50k is analogous to a 50 cent price difference in garbage bags for an upper-middle-class US family, feel free to stop reading this thread at this point.

The “so what” is that some of us highly value a school experience that (again, sorry to keep stealing your phrase, Hunt) has the highest concentration of highly able accomplished students and the lowest concentration of students who aren’t that interested in a high-level education.

And if your family is considers this experience worth its costs then I am happy for you

1. Although some people would prefer to eat at the Cheesecake Factory, hardly anybody would claim that it is a “better” restaurant overall.
2. If the decision were where to eat dinner tonight, vs. where to eat every night for four years, the results could be quite different.
3. People who prefer the AAA restaurant don’t necessarily do so because they think it’s more prestigious to eat there.
4. You might make a different choice on which restaurant to go to depending on whether you are treating or somebody else is.
5. You might have perfectly good reasons to never want to eat in the AAA restaurant. Maybe you’re a vegetarian, and it’s a steak place. Or you hate seafood, and it’s a seafood place. Or you find it too stuffy. Those things are all reasonable, but they don’t really reflect on the quality of the AAA restaurant.
6. Cheesecake Factory is pretty good. It’s not lightyears worse than a fancy restaurant. That’s another reason I think it’s a good analogy. If you had said McDonalds, it would be harder to agree.

I saved this post for last because I like it a lot. The only distinction I would raise - not to disagree, but to clarify - is that AAA generally does not make normative claims when awarding diamonds. They do not say that a five diamond restaurant is better than a three diamond restaurant; rather, the diamonds are intended to convey information about the nature of the experience offered at each establishment: [Welcome</a> to aaa.com](<a href=“http://ww2.aaa.com/scripts/WebObjects.dll/AAAOnline.woa/616/wo/HjPOZxBVLpK58CX57cSjIM/0.11.13.8.3.0.1.2.2.11.1.0.1.1.0.0]Welcome”>http://ww2.aaa.com/scripts/WebObjects.dll/AAAOnline.woa/616/wo/HjPOZxBVLpK58CX57cSjIM/0.11.13.8.3.0.1.2.2.11.1.0.1.1.0.0)</p>

<p>For the most part, I find this post a good summary.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>^^I think the poster means Triple A restaurant, something like A++ instead of aaa.com</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

To be frank, it seems to me that you already performed a cost-benefit analysis and concluded that some schools are worth the additional cost over your state flagship (UIUC?) and some are not.

</p>

<p>Except UIUC’s cost (which frankly I don’t even know - I’m guessing $25K, but I haven’t a clue) wasn’t my starting point. My starting point was - look at a range of schools in your sweet spot - which we estimated to be at the top 20 - top 40-ish range, and we (meaning H and I) considered those schools generally all worth paying for. </p>

<p>Their safety schools, which they didn’t wind up using / needing, were Lawrence U for D and American U for S. Even though they probably rate below UIUC and cost more, I would have still preferred for them to choose those schools over UIUC. I’m not dissing UIUC. Many smart kids choose it and become successful. The North Shore of Chicago is chockful of UIUC graduates in million dollar homes fretting over sending their kids to Ivies :-). But I’m just not interested. For a multitude of reasons. And one of those reasons is indeed having them go to school with kids other than all-the-kids-they-grew-up-with.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

If anyone reading this has enough money that $50k is analogous to a 50 cent price difference in garbage bags for an upper-middle-class US family, feel free to stop reading this thread at this point/

</p>

<p>I certainly don’t have enough money to think of $50K as being analogous to 50 cents, but H and I value an elite college education very highly for emotional as well as practical reasons, and it was important to us to work our butts off and save so that when we embarked on the search, we could say to our kids, “You go find the schools you like, and you don’t need to worry about the costs.” That’s an incredible gift we were honored to give them. I see their friends sweating about whether they can afford good schools they’ve gotten into and it’s a shame. The world will go on, of course, if their smart friends don’t wind up at the “best” schools, but to me it’s still a shame. Other people feel differently and lots of people around here don’t even put elite colleges on their radar screens. They find them snooty or don’t get the appeal or can’t understand why anyone would pay one dollar over UIUC prices. Whatever.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

I think the poster means Triple A restaurant, something like A++ instead of aaa.com

I introduced the restaurant metaphor, so I think we can trust my clarification. All of the points I quoted should still retain relevance in this context

Except UIUC’s cost (which frankly I don’t even know - I’m guessing $25K, but I haven’t a clue) wasn’t my starting point. My starting point was - look at a range of schools in your sweet spot - which we estimated to be at the top 20 - top 40-ish range, and we (meaning H and I) considered those schools generally all worth paying for.

“Worth paying for” compared to what? Joining the circus? Attending UIUC? The safety school?

I certainly don’t have enough money to think of $50K as being analogous to 50 cents, but H and I value an elite college education very highly for emotional as well as practical reasons, and it was important to us to work our butts off and save so that when we embarked on the search, we could say to our kids, “You go find the schools you like, and you don’t need to worry about the costs.” That’s an incredible gift we were honored to give them. I see their friends sweating about whether they can afford good schools they’ve gotten into and it’s a shame. The world will go on, of course, if their smart friends don’t wind up at the “best” schools, but to me it’s still a shame. Other people feel differently and lots of people around here don’t even put elite colleges on their radar screens. They find them snooty or don’t get the appeal or can’t understand why anyone would pay one dollar over UIUC prices. Whatever.

I think I see the real difference between our approaches. You are viewing the four-year college experience as the sole end goal. I am looking at one’s overall life experience as the end goal. Through your lens, there’s no need to consider cost differences because the saved money doesn’t apply to that four-year college experience. There is no opportunity cost. The way I see things, alternative uses for the money must also be considered in order to maximize overall quality of experience.</p>

<p>Does that make sense?</p>

[sevmom]

<p>Pizzagirl,You sound great but you do sound like you have been “fretting” about things as much as your North Shore neighbors. Like not having to send your kids to Illinois . If you really don’t know what your instate flagship costs, costs are fairly irrelevant to you.It’s all good. You should send your kids to any college your kids would be successful at.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>noimagination, you are not even in college yet, how would you of any collegiate experience? Sorry, I think what you said is all bunk.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

noimagination, you are not even in college yet, how would you of any collegiate experience

If I ever rely on personal experience to support my arguments, feel free to show us exactly where I do so. If you would like to respond to the content of my posts, go right ahead. It should not be overly difficult given that they are all “bunk” :rolleyes:

And which post did you introduce the restaurant metaphor ?

Post #284, which Hunt actually quoted in his excellent post #287.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>None of your post is cogently stated, I’d rather spend my time doing something else.</p>

[noimagination]

<p>

None of your post is cogently stated, I’d rather spend my time doing something else.

In that case, thank you for your insightful contributions to this thread.</p>

[glimmeringirl]

<p>Gourmet Mom-
“Spending $1,000 on a handbag is a sin.” Well, I made sure my Gucci bag was well tucked under my chair, hoping that she wouldn’t notice it. Why is that any different if I criticized her inexpensive bag?</p>

<p>Her criticism is different from yours because it comes from the heart of her not having choices, perhaps not even the ability to pay the monthly necessities without anxiety. Or it may come from her awareness that so many people in the world have difficulties while you can spend that on a bag.it comes from a sense of empathy. It’s also not analogous to choosing an elite college because it is sheerly, purely frivolous and contributing to the well-being of only one person- you. Educational investments - at a state school or an elite school- have the potential to benefit many people- the people our educated kids come into contact with and the society they work for. </p>

<p>You sound like you have many many “things”!</p>

[Gourmetmom]

<p>Glimmeringirl -</p>

<p>A couple of points - I know the woman who made the comment well enough to know that her choices are choices and not forced by financial necessity. She is a very frugal individual who, incidentally, also only considered full merit schools for her children. I think her point was one of waste - anything “extra” or “frivolous” is wasteful in her view. Waste=sin. I fully realize that a handbag is not a college education. Because I’m educating three children, I have a fairly good idea of the difference, but thanks for the reminder. The difference is that I don’t care what she or anyone else does with their money, while she clearly does care what others do their money. I’m happy to see any of my hardworking friends splurge and treat themselves to a nice vacation, new outfit or whatever - why begrudge them a little pleasure in life?</p>

<p>

You sound like you have many many “things”!

What are you implying here?</p>

[Hunt]

<p>Hey, buying the Gucci bag doesn’t only benefit the person who buys it–it also benefits the people who made it, who transported it, and who sold it. In fact, because it probably costs a lot less to make it than it costs, all that money flows out to other people in the economy. It’s not a waste of money–it’s just a transfer of money.</p>

[poetgrl]

<p>

6. Cheesecake Factory is pretty good. It’s not lightyears worse than a fancy restaurant. That’s another reason I think it’s a good analogy. If you had said McDonalds, it would be harder to agree.

</p>

<p>I don’t know who made this quote originally, but The Cheesecake Factory is not pretty good and is lightyears worse than a michelin rated restaurant. Egad.</p>

<p>I don’t know why people care how others want to spend their money. I’d spend my money at Daniel before I’d buy a gucci purse, but I’d buy a nice chanel dress before I’d buy a rolex. I don’t like rolex’s on women, though I like them on men. </p>

<p>The only reason it is important that a good flagship is a solid education for a solid student is because it is all some students can afford. I’m glad these options exist. But anyone who believes it is easier to be at a flagship, with the exception of a few like UNC and UVA, than an elite school just doesn’t understand the difference. If you haven’t been in both situations, you really can’t compare.</p>

<p>At the private schools, they bring the education to the student. At the state schools, the student has to go out and find it. It’s a small difference for the very best students, but the kind of small difference that has an exponential effect on the quality of learning. In a more apples to apples type of comparison, take a look at USC and UCLA. At UCLA, they are cutting classes and library hours. At USC? The endowment makes the school better every year.</p>

<p>BUT, a similar student can get an excellent education at both. They’ll simply have to work a little harder on the logistical end of things at UCLA. Like a good concierge, some feel this is a high value cost, others have no idea what that means. This is a good thing, since they probably don’t have the same options.</p>