"When women stopped coding" story about the drop in women majoring in CS

This is an actual nonprofit, https://girlswhocode.com/

http://www.guidestar.org/profile/30-0728021

There was an article or study that came out within the last few months that said that women were better coders than men. If some one can find it they may want to post a link to it.

I found the study. Here is the link

https://peerj.com/preprints/1733.pdf

I did not read the above. However, as a general type of observation, the males for some reason are hesitant to ask around, some kind of “pride” issue or whatever? I noticed this in my H., my S. and my grandson. Instead, they try to “derive” the answer thru some kind of “logical” construction so to speak. If you do not ask, you have to use your own assumptions. The coding itself is the smallest part of the programmer’s job. You have to contact the proper users and ask again and again and confirm several times and make sure that ALL parties on the same page so to speak, BEFORE you code. Many males (I cannot say all), have some kind of hesitation built in in regard to all these asking, which is actually the biggest part of the “analysis” step. The rule in designing is that there should be no assumptions, everything needs to be discussed, confirmed, approved, signed off, littlest of the littlest and seemingly unimportant detail requires this process. If something is missed in this process, it will come back to you as a “bug”…Other than that, based on my 35 years of experience, I would not say that females are better coders, everybody is just different and has his/her own styles and preferences aside from the standardized ones.

My soph D is active in Girls Who Code at her University. She has said she finds it very fulfilling meeting with junior and senior high school girls in her area, and encouraging them to pursue an education in CE/CS.

@MiamiDAP do you have any research studies that men are as good at coding as women or are you just relying on anecdotal evidence. Also the study cited above is interesting in that it indicates that women are discriminated against in regards to their coding ability. Maybe that is one of the reasons why women stop coding

Girls Who Code released this video a few months back to poke fun at the gender bias in coding-

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vXeF6Uot8pk

Sort of related - a new book on female black mathematicians working on the space project

Hidden Figures: The American Dream and the Untold Story of the Black Women Mathematicians Who Helped Win the Space Race by Margot Lee Shetterly

"Maybe that is one of the reasons why women stop coding " - they did not, all IT departments are still full of women, we just got much older. But if we stick around, does not it proof that we were OK? I do not read any “research” articles. I do not believe them, I believe that all these could be easily manipulated by the ideology of those who fund these research.
However, I agree that there is no younger ladies to replace us. And these did not have a chance to experience any discrimination. So, there is no logic in all these research as far as I can see. The older women stick around and are still in many IT / IS management positions…because they were discriminated against??? And the young ones who never had any chance to be discriminated because they simply did not work in IT, are NOT trying, because they ASSUME that they will be discriminated? As a programmer I never assume anything and I do not take anything from some potentially ideologically influenced research either.

True the numbers do show us old female programmers are out there and no new younguns are coming in to replace us (if/when we retire?). It is not discrimination - it is a lack of interest in pursuing a technical career/degree. So, how do we stimulate this interest (which is why people in this thread have discussed coding clubs in schools -, etc.) Is this lack of interest brought about by changes in the “culture” of tech or something else?

Good news - my DD just accepted a great offer here in Austin at IBM. Earlier this summer, she was seriously considering going to law school after getting her degree in CE. She was considering this, not because of discrimination but what she called the imposter syndrome. She has had to work for this degree and believes, rightfully so, that she is not the best at it. This summer’s internship proved to her that she can do the work and that she can contribute in many areas. Technically, she may not be the best but she has other qualities such as communication skills that are valued. So, for her it was more of an issue of a lack of confidence in her abilities vs discrimination.

@GTAustin, congratulations, and so you know, Imposter Syndrome is at epidemic levels in this field. DS had a fellow intern this summer, getting a PhD at MIT, regarded by DS as the smartest of the smart, who suffers from it (as did DS and at least half of his fellow interns). IMO, it is a natural consequence of being smart enough to know how smart other people are, but being too modest to acknowledge your own smarts. As mental aberrations go, it’s not the worst of them :slight_smile:

I think your daughter made a great choice.

“it is a lack of interest in pursuing a technical career/degree.” - I have a much better (I am not humble!) idea. As a lot of medical schools see the female numbers rise and rise with every year, many of those who would consider CS, simply went to pursue a much higher paid and a hugely more secure path of MD. This is also based on my personal experience with my D. and the great number of her friends / HS& college classmates. Why nobody has looked at this before? I simply told my D. that I am on my job #9, I could not relocate from our very economically depressed city and if she wants to choose her place of living and be more in charge of her future and very secure at her job, MD is definitely a much better choice than CS. I just wonder how many parents told their kids the same thing. I see so many of newly minted MDs, nurses, PAs around us and many of them are girls, maybe most? These paths are extremely challenging, but smart girls exceedingly decide to endure to guarantee a spot in a work force.

I agree with Miami on one thing. Being a MD is a better path for a woman than CS. The problem is medical school is not for everyone.

Discrimination in the CS field is rampant. It is probably even worse against minorities than women. It is a real problem

Here is what Airbnb said today

“Airbnb has also assembled a permanent team of engineers whose purpose is to root out bias in the way the company functions. Airbnb now routes discrimination complaints to a group of trained specialists. Apart from Ms. Murphy, the company has brought in advisers including a former United States attorney general, Eric H. Holder Jr., and John Relman, a civil rights attorney based in Washington.” and this does not just apply to its customers. It applies to its staff as well

There are PLENTY of younger ladies who can and would go into the CS field if given the right opportunity

D just started her Intro CS course, her professor is a younger woman with a fairly fresh PhD. I really hope it goes well.

I work in IT. I think this is the most meritocratic field. Many people working in the field do not even have a formal computer education (myself including). A lot of people from all over the world (myself including) and of all skin colors . A lot of people speaking broken and unintelligible English (myself including). I cannot imagine that this a qualified “minority” applicant will have more trouble being hired in this field than in any other field.

I went into CS and would never have considered medical school (same with my STEM daughter) - too squeamish - I know both are STEM fields but I think the personalities and skills for both are worlds apart.

@ccdd14 when blacks and Hispanics represent 1 or 2 per cent of the technical work force in CS that is a huge problem to me and lots of other people. Zuckerberg thinks it is a significant problem but he said he doesn’t know how to solve it. A lot of people speaking broken English are in the United States doing CS jobs on H1B visas. That is also a big problem. They are taking jobs that could and should go to women or minorities.

You were talking about discrimination. Do you believe that the US companies intentionally do not hire qualified minorities for IT positions?

Discrimination does not have to be intentional. But yes I believe many tech companies discriminate against blacks and Hispanics

From the EEOC

"Race/Color Discrimination

Race discrimination involves treating someone (an applicant or employee) unfavorably because he/she is of a certain race or because of personal characteristics associated with race (such as hair texture, skin color, or certain facial features). Color discrimination involves treating someone unfavorably because of skin color complexion.

Race/color discrimination also can involve treating someone unfavorably because the person is married to (or associated with) a person of a certain race or color.

Discrimination can occur when the victim and the person who inflicted the discrimination are the same race or color.

Race/Color Discrimination & Work Situations

The law forbids discrimination when it comes to any aspect of employment, including hiring, firing, pay, job assignments, promotions, layoff, training, fringe benefits, and any other term or condition of employment."

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/race_color.cfm