<p>I think it’s almost impossible to re-enter the legal workplace “at a high level” after being out of the workforce for a while. I haven’t seen it. (by “high level” I mean at a large law firm or investment bank - maybe “high-octane” would be a better term).</p>
<p>I have seen a few women return to very different legal practices - small firms, not-for-profits - but not that many.</p>
<p>I agree that some career tracks lend themselves less to part-time work or years off than others. That’s one of the factors that people need to consider when choosing careers. But, while it might be impossible to get back onto a partner track in a corporate law firm, or to go back to clinical practice, aren’t there other things that can be done with both law and medical degrees? Teaching, working for non-profits, public health, etc etc. What I’ve advised my kids is that if you find work you are really, really good at, and establish yourself full time, when the time comes to take time off or go part time, you are much more likely to be able to work something out. Having kids first, then trying to get hired as a part time worker is much harder.</p>
<p>Hi all-</p>
<p>I am giving myself one post per week…spending a lot of my ‘now the two eldest are settled in college and the third is only 10 thank goodness’ time on CME (continuing medical education) as I ‘re-tool’ myself after many years away from a conventional medical practice- partly spent by choice in child raising, mostly imposed by local government restrictions-which have meant adopting an atypical practice model, and a lot of regional travel.</p>
<p>Sometimes the choices a woman (or a man) makes are not their own, in fact. I never envisioned having to make a choice between career and family when I started out, I was comfortable to prioritize elements of each and try to strike a balance of ‘good enoughs.’ Many years ago a friend suggested the book ‘Composing a Life’ by Mary Catherine Bateson, a Berkeley Sociology prof, daughter of Margaret Mead. The theme is the non-linearity which comprises the backbone of the working life of many women. As my H and I made the choice to live overseas, knowing full well the restrictions but never anticipating we would be here this long, it was the construct of ‘non-linearity’ which struck me as so useful and pertinent.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the traditional ‘career track’ for women is derived largely from that created for and by men. We(women) can choose to buy into it, or we can recognize that we can derive pleasure, reinforcement, stimulation, income, etc. by patching together something that may not resemble the conventional career track, but which meets needs quite well, in fact. For me personally, the support I have from my H, who has always sought balance in his profession, has been irreplacable. He wouldn’t trade the time he has spent drawing, playing pool or chess with our kids for the next notch on the corporate ladder(and all the hassles that go with it) for anything…</p>
<p>galwaymom, my D, too cringes at any suggestion that she be a physician like her cardiologist mom and ob-gyn/pathologist dad. When she was an infant, I was an internist and he an ob each on every other week call after 3 short weeks of maternity leave (we were in the military), and I was home more. When she was 15 months old, I became a cardiology fellow and he did a pathology residency so it was a real role reversal. When she was 4, she set down the law that my husband was not permitted to talk about autopsies at the dinner table. It’s not that she’s not a hard worker and doesn’t respect what we do…she just thinks it’s gross and disgusting (my hubby) and too unpredictable to have a life (me). There is NO way I could ever go back to cardiology if I “dropped out” for a while, and part time work wasn’t possible when she was little (Uncle Sam doesn’t “do” part time). She’s turned out just fine (knock on wood), my DH and I work as clinical academic faculty making 1/3 of what our private practice colleagues haul in, and at least one of us goes to ALL her school plays, concerts, and dance recitals.</p>
<p>I left an executive position to be a full time mom. But. like nearly every well-educated full time mom I know, I never was a stay at home mom. </p>
<p>During the years my kids were young, I attended graduate school, started a successful and intellectually challenging home based business, read voraciously, volunteered regularly at my children’s schools and in our community, became involved with local government, devoted time to drawing and painting, learned a meditative form of prayer, managed our family’s financial investments, landscaped our three acres of property, took horseback riding lessons, raised five dogs, a horse, a pig, several goats, travelled extensively around the world, and yes, spent many hours just enjoying being with my children and watching them grow and turn into two pretty darn good people. </p>
<p>In short, I do not see the last 17 years of my life as a waste of my education, my intellect or my talents. I actually see them as the 17 best and most satisfying years of my life. I feel very blessed to have had the economic ability to pursue this path, although I recognize that not all women have had similiar opportunities.</p>
<p>It saddens me that women are still sitting around trying to impose their live choices on other women, especially younger women. No one should assume that all women who choose to leave the work force are just sitting around eating bon-bons and stagnating intellectually. I know plenty of women like me who have chosen to opt out of the traditional workforce while their children were young and yet have neither eaten bon-bons or stagnated intellectually. There are many more paths a satisfying life than simply staying in the traditional workforce and it is simply incorrect to imply that those of us who have chosen alternate paths - or would like to choose them in the future like the young woman originally quoted - have somehow not lived up to our full potential.</p>
<p>I agree with the person near the beginning of this thread who noted that perhaps the true accomplishment of feminism is not that it has led all women to stay in traditional career paths; rather, it is that we now have choices to pursue our own paths in life as we see fit. Whether we work, stay home, find some combination, we are free to live our lives according to our own desires and choices. We owe it to each other, and to future generations, not to judge each other’s paths. There is no one “right” answer here, and no one should make assumptions about how other people taking different paths might lead their lives or predict their future happiness and satisfaction because another woman has chosen a different path than the one you picked for yourself. We do a grave dis-service to ourselves as women, and to our daughters and the younger generation, when we fall into the trap of believing that there is only one “right” path.</p>
<p>Everyone seems to find the path that works best for him/her. I just couldn’t stand missing out on the small things in my kids lives. It’s not always exciting to take care of kids, take them to sports/music activities, religious ed or make sure homework is done. But then I don’t remember work being a thrill-a-minute either.</p>
<p>In my mind, Heilbrun’s “Writing a Woman’s Life” is sort of a companion volume to Bateson’s wonderful book and it really clarified a lot of issues for me when some of my friends were choosing, or making decisions that would inevitably insure, very different life paths than mine.</p>
<p>Robrym, How nice to see you again. I was thrilled to see you mention “Composing a Life” - one of the best, most life changing books I have ever read because it made me realize just how wonderful it is that we have so many choices in our lives. Thank you for reminding me of this book: I have just decided to pass on my copy to my daughter.</p>
<p>Carolyn, on the flip side, I’m more than a little irritated at being looked down the nose at because I did NOT stay home when my D was little and, though I participate a great deal at her school, cannot be the class parent representative because I will probably miss more class meetings than I will make. No, I was not given a choice whether or not to stay home when my D was little. The Air Force still takes the attitude “If we wanted you to have a child we’d issue you one.” But, you know what? I probably wouldn’t have stayed home anyway. I serve the sick. And I love what I do. And I wouldn’t be half the mom that I am if I didn’t do it.</p>
<p>Quilt, I understand. That’s why it is so important that none of us jump to conclusions about each others’ choices. We live our own lives, and there is no one right path for everyone or every life circumstance. As I said, it saddens me to think that we are still having this discussion in this day and age. Ideally, we women should all support each others’ paths, and not feel the need to defend our own individual paths, whatever they may be. Only through the understanding and whole-hearted acceptance that we are all individuals, with our own needs, goals, and life circumstances, will we ever become truly liberated. The truth is ALL of us are good mothers, just different types of mothers. If we can just accept that about each other, and cheer each other on, we would all be so much stronger and better for it.</p>
<p>I’m looking forward to experiencing more of toddlerhood through my future grandchildren. Have to find another moniker, though…I don’t want “Grandma.” I think I’ll have them call me Xena. Easy to say, and much more robust-sounding than Nana.</p>
<p>Amen, Carolyn, amen.</p>
<p>Quote from Sac:" Therefore, I would not condemn any woman’s choice. As long as it really is her choice – that she really wants to be a stay at home mom – rather than the choice she is forced to make because her partner is not willing to be a full partner."</p>
<p>Sac,
maybe I’m taking this quote from you too personally but I think I’m the only one that mentioned that an unhelpful husband as one of the reasons I quit working part time. I do want to clarify that I was not forced to make the decision. The randomness of my job ( full time some weeks, a few hours the next) and medical needs of a premie with club foot were just as big a factor in the decision. I loved my job and I loved raising my kids myself but I felt I had to decide. I might have still made the choice to quit my freelance work even if my husband had shared the child rearing and household duties more. </p>
<p>I think the larger point I was getting at when I shared that bit of personal information was that not all husbands are as helpful as some of those mentioned on this thread. They were after all raised in the fifties and sixties and many were socialized to see those responsibilities as “women’s work”. I’ve read plenty of studies that show that women still do a disproportionate amount of the work. It’s improving but it’s not equal yet.</p>
<p>This subject just tears at my heart. Probably always will. </p>
<p>I went through my 20s thinking I cared for my career but always wanting children but crying because I wasn’t married. Got married at 29, having gotten an MBA and having reached a certain level of career success as a salesperson. Turned down a promotion in my career once I got married. Got pregnant 11 months after the wedding, on purpose. Quit my job when I was 7 months pregnant. Stayed home full time for 4 years, until my 2nd (youngest) was 15 months old. Loved my children more than life itself, nursed them ad infinitem.</p>
<p>H made it clear I had to go back to work because his career choices would not support us. Before having kids, I thought I would be happy going back to work. But after having kids, god, I would have dropped my blood onto a hot stove to be able to stay home. Wasn’t possible due to financial reasons.</p>
<p>Went back to work. Am now VP at a very visible start up. Have what looks like success from all sides, kids do well in school, H works at home in his not too lucrative but high status work.</p>
<p>And I to this day mourn the 3rd child I never had. To this day, I would have sent the Princeton degree, and the MBA, down like the Titanic, for the 3rd child I didn’t have. So.</p>
<p>So.</p>
<p>This is not a rational world. This is not something we can all plan for. Mark my words. Some of us women live all our lives craving our babies and once we have them live all our lives loving them like Romeo. </p>
<p>So.</p>
<p>For all you planning out there, in your 20s, try to imagine how it feels once you hold that little creature, once it opens its sticky eyelids to look at you, once it says " Hi mama", once it latches onto your breast.</p>
<p>If that catches your heart beware your career planning and be careful who you marry. Everyone makes their choices. Just understand very carefully that you make them from your heart no matter how big your brain.</p>
<p>My wish would be that young women interview older women in all the career fields they are considering. There are different fields of medicine and law that allow for more flexibility than others. There are wonderful day care centers, some good ways to get “help”, choosing to live near a set of willing grandparents, etc. MANY books have been written over last 30 years, but so many women feel they are inventing a wheel.
The intangibles–divorce, illness, job shifts(major layoffs in certain fields)–are only a part of why one needs to be flexible.
My message to learn more about a future field is not just for girls but guys too. Many men I know have long lost the passion for their work and would leave in an instance if they won the lottery. Sometimes I thin CC kids spend more time thinking about their future college than their field.</p>
<p>Well said, Carolyn. And as I said earlier, I’m looking forward to seeing what my daughter AND son choose to do, and how they do it. And driver, I will be really happy to be a grandma someday, too (not too soon, though)!
Quiltguru, remind me to tell you my story of first day back in the office after baby #1. It involves lactation collecting and a very embarrassed older male colleague! :)</p>
<p>I wonder if those of you with daughters view this dilemma differently from those who have sons. My mother was thrilled when each of her four daughters pursued education and careers. Two of my sisters have Masters degrees in Electrical Engineering and one is an R.N. I am the only sahm. But my mother always seemed torn about whether to encourage us to pursue careers or to stay home with kids. Her life was very difficult and I think she was very aware of the advantages that financial independence brings to a woman. As a mom of sons, I don’t worry about whether or not they should pursue a career – they really don’t have that choice and I really didn’t raise them to think it was an option.</p>
<p>lizschup – My comment was not made at all with you in mind! I was thinking about the article that launched this whole discussion and the male students who applauded the young womens’ decisions to be full time moms as “sexy.” I wondered how much of the applause had to do with a sigh of relief that they wouldn’t be asked to change diapers.</p>
<p>I was also disturbed by an undertone I read in the article, questionning whether women should get places at top schools and law schools when they would “only” be raising kids. Did others sense this as well?</p>
<p>Carolyn – A beautiful statement. As I said, the feminist movement was about gaining more choices for women, and we accomplished that. I just hope the economy doesn’t take it away.</p>
<p>And for the record, when I’ve worked part time I’ve also volunteered, and cared for two elderly parents as well as two kids. I’ve been very lucky. I love my career(s) and my husband not only participates fully, but earns a decent salary and works very hard. He just doesn’t sleep much.</p>
<p>It’s the biology that trips us all up. I was so committed to my intellect, still am I suppose, but somehow that endocrine system wound up trumping the brain electronics…</p>
<p>Babies. To me, everything else has the ring of blah blah blah. Who else on this thread was struck by the first sound of their child’s heartbeat? To this day I can cry to remember the amplified sound of Ds heartbeat in utero. Now I know it was the heartbeat of a 5 foot 9 inch red head with fabulous coordination and a long neck and top notch brain for math and a will that does not die. Then I only knew it was a life I was now responsible for. Career? C’etait rien. Si on voit les yeux d’un enfant, the career ce n’est pas rien. To me. Even though I now have a big career. Still nothing compares to the eyes of my babies rolling back into their baby foreheads as I nursed them to sleep… The feeling of their bodies giving up their attempts to be in control and handing over everything to me, the mom, as they fall asleep.</p>
<p>But I am on the far side of the scale.</p>
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<p>And that’s precisely the issue. I am a mom of sons. Would we feel comfortable telling sons that they can be stay-at-home dads, since they’ll be marrying high-achieving women with glittering but also demanding careers? Would we tell them that they now have more choices than previous generations? In all these discussions, and in particular in the young women’s career plans, there is the assumption that men will continue to be working full-time in demanding careers, making enough money for their wives to be stay-at-home mothers and maintaining middle or upper-middle class lifestyles. I thought gender equality was not just about giving women access to positions previously closed to them but also freeing men from the burden of having to take up these positions for the sake of their families.
I’ve got two sons whose priorities do not include making tons of money. I can only hope for their sake that their spouses will share the burden of keeping their families afloat financially (I do see myself being grandmama eventually).</p>