Where Are All the Young Women Going

Parent Cafe
101

<p>In HI, we have many women who are using their college & graduate degrees. Some of us have taken some time off to raise our kids & not working in the labor force, some have gone to part-time, & others have remained full-time in the labor force.</p>

<p>When our kids are more “self sufficient,” many of us have returned to our careers with more enthusiasm & bringing skills we honed as parents. We all have to achieve the balance that works for us, where it lies. Folks that have the luxury to choose whether & how many hours they will work & still maintain a comfortable lifestyle are fortunate indeed.</p>

<p>Of our family, only my older sister & I “stopped out” of the labor market when we had our kids. My brothers & sisters have always worked full-time in the labor market. Now that our kids are pretty independent, we both work part-time; my sister-in-law also works part-time & loves having the balance of a satisfying home life & professional life, as does my sister & I.</p>

<p>I enjoy part-time work so much, I honestly am not attracted to full-time work, nor is my sister nor sister-in-law. When we can afford it, my husband would enjoy part-time work as well, I believe. My best friend in LA works part-time out of her home now & makes more than she did when she was working full-time in the corporate world.</p>

<p>I don’t believe any of us owe any apologies for deciding how best to balance our careers and personal/family lives. Many of the “stay at home” parents I know spend a LOT of time & energy doing volunteer work & bring their skills, talents & education to those projects & positions as well. When I was staying at home, I ran the PTA & was very active in the school board & many efforts to help improve & reform our state education system. I didn’t consider my skills (or that of my educated friends) “wasted” just because I (& my friends) wasn’t/weren’t being paid for them–the places I/we volunteered could not have afforded my/our services.</p>

<p>My kids appreciated knowing that we could always free up time to be there for them, no matter where or when. It was very useful when they would inexplicably be ill or need an extra parent to help at the school or go on a field trip. Now that they’re in HS, they’re more independent & honestly rather have us save more money for college & retirement than having our presence so prominently at school <grin>. </grin></p>

<p>SIDENOTE about Gender Choices & Nurturing
It is nice when the couple can make the choices that work best for the family. My friend who worked full-time in the corporate world didn’t go to part-time work until her husband was done with his stint at being self-employed & had a full-time job again so they could have the certainty of one job with benefits & regular salary. I have other friends who have also been able to work things out in this way. I think it is often harder for men to be able to work part-time or stop working & care for kids than women–our society doesn’t support that choice as much, even when it makes more sense for the couple economically as well as in terms of personality & disposition. Another friend who is a high-powered scientist tried to stay home with her kids, but couldn’t tolerate being home with kids after a very short while & HAD to return to the lab; her hubby was happy to stay at home with the kids & invent in his lab from his basement.</p>

102

<p>

You had babies that slept!!! One of the things my participatory husband used to do was spend hours dancing one kid to sleep. With the second kid, he’d lie on the floor by the side of the crib, then crawl out of the room on hands and knees, trying to avoid the creaky floorboards.</p>

103

<p>Sac, thanks for the clarification - I was just being overly sensitive.</p>

<p>And thanks to all those posting tonight - fascinating stories and wonderful insights from all.</p>

104

<p>I hear you alum–though I lucked out; marrying at 25, (surprise) baby at 28, the second at 30. I sometimes wonder about a third, but I don’t know if there is enough ‘cheers’ to divvy up. Plus, as the eldest of six, I know the downside of too many children in a family. I am happy with the two–although I could raise a dozen if they never got older than 12.</p>

<p>One of the reasons I push my boys to get out and see the world NOW is because I see heaps of reasons to have children while you are in your twenties, while you still love a bit of the rough and tumble. </p>

<p>I know dozens of women who waited too long to have one–or more than one. I know at least a half dozen older women who have children with significant development issues, some of them heartbreaking. </p>

<p>On the one hand, I can’t wait to be a Grandma. I don’t care what they call me. Hey you would be good enough. </p>

<p>On the other hand, with two boys,both of whom are madly in love at the moment, I’m too busy throwing water on the developing ardour to dream about future kiddies. (Also too superstitious!)</p>

105

<p>Marite – I think you raise a valid point. I’d love to see the men having a discussion thread on this issue. In our family, I realized at some point that not only did my husband make more, but that he would never work less. Therefore, I was the one to cut back. If he had expressed a desire to stay home or work part time, there’s no doubt he would have paid more penalties in the work world than I did. Still, I think I would have tried to make it possible for him to do that. Interesting questions…</p>

106

<p>sac - they only slept for 45 minutes at a time during the day. My kids did not sleep through the night until they were 2 years old. I didn’t realize how psychotic I was from sleep deprivation until they finally slept past 4 in the morning…And H could take over once I refused to nurse the 2 year old but until then biology ruled.</p>

<p>marite - if your sons do not want to support a family, then they should not have to. They should marry girls who want kids but don’t want to drip milk every time the babies cry:). And if my D is like me, and finds despite her competency at “boy” tasks she is floored by her desire to nurse babies and locate her core identity in her physical female self, there should also be males who want to support that.</p>

<p>It is about choice. But choice requires education on the tradeoffs.</p>

107

<p>Alumother – I realized the psychosis when I would try to nap during the day and was so sleep-deprived I’d go right into REM sleep and then dream I heard the baby crying, but didn’t know whether I was asleep or awake. It was so frightening I gave up any attempt to nap.</p>

<p>As for the choices, sometimes life makes them for us. Plan as much as we want, the system still needs some “give” to enable us to make choices. I would hope that both men and women get to make those choices, having one boy, one girl. My daughter’s chosen to become an elementary school teacher. I’d be fine with my son choosing the same. But they should both marry engineers! :)</p>

108

<p>Okay, one more post this week.</p>

<p>Just as I have accepted trade-offs, so has my husband (who has equally fancy degrees) in the name of keeping our lives ‘whole’ as we define them. In the world of mobile two career couples, there is often a ‘trailing spouse’, isn’t there? I know lots of men who are in that role, though certainly there are more women. The joke here is that most of the men want to be in ‘reincarnated as an expat wife’- as the life of women here is one of relative comfort. In fact however, many of the trailing spouses(men and women) HAVE given up something as well, a part of themselves that for them only is found in a workplace setting.</p>

<p>From my perspective, this whole issue is gender neutral except for the peri-natal period of an infant, in which case a uterus and lactation are usually helpful. For my sons, as for my daughter, the goal has been to let them understand that all things are possible in life- and that this doesn’t mean that ‘anyone can be president’- it means that we all are blessed if we have the luxury of choice.</p>

109

<p>Alumother, What wonderful posts! I’m on the far side of the scale with you – and remember thinking at age four that what I needed was a real baby not some silly doll substitute. And also mourned for years my should-have-been third baby (which we waited too late to try for because we kept hoping the twins would eventually sleep through the night-- which never ever happened) and even convinced my h we would still be young enough to adopt when our boys left for college! We followed with great interest the adoption adventures of several of our <em>older</em> friends while we were doing the college application process. But time calmed my hormones and when the boys left I remember standing alone in my house thinking-- unbelievably-- that the terrible craving urge was finally gone. Childrearing had been an incredibly intense experience for me but it was over and I finally didn’t feel the desire to relive any of it. And it just seemed time to move on with the next phase. I wonder how unusual that experience is? Do you still have children at home? </p>

<p>regarding raising sons. I have tried my best to raise mine to believe that it is a couple’s decision how they raise their children and that if one has strong opinions it needs to be discussed before marriage. I don’t see how we will ever have a really feminist society until it is just as acceptable for men to be primary caregivers as women. Will it limit their career options? No doubt it will, just as it limits those of women who choose that role. But if there ever comes a point in time it isn’t seen as unusual I bet opportunities will be greater for all parents regardless of gender.</p>

110

<p>Cheers:</p>

<p>I’m assuming they will eventually want to have a family; but the careers they want to pursue are not the kinds that will enable them and their families to live on one salary, pay for a decent house in a district with a decent public school system and eventually cover a couple of college tuitions.
I go back to my brother who supported his wife’s desire to be a free-lance artist. For the last 20 years, he has shouldered the burden of providing financially for all of them. Does he have a fulfilling career? I suppose he would if he were not so frequently threatened with being laid off because the company went south or went bankrupt. At one point, he was offered a job at Vivendi, more interesting sounding than the one he had. He did not take it up because he did not like the office politics. A few months later, Vivendi pretty much self-destructed.
The milk dripping does not last long; at least it did not for me. S1 did not sleep through the night until 9 months; S2 did not sleep through the night until he was four. There was no point in asking H to take over since I am a lighter sleepeer than he, and once awake, I could not get back to sleep. I did stagger in to work bleary-eyed for quite a while. It’s just as well that I did not give up on work, though. H got laid off for the first time when S2 was still in daycare. I don’t know how we would have managed if I had not been working then. As it was, he could afford to take some time to look for another good position rather than grab the first one available for the sake of paying the mortgage and putting food on the table.</p>

111

<p>Very interesting posts. Lots of passion. Perhaps our generation will never be able to entirely resolve all the conflicts surrounding the work full time/stay at home issue. </p>

<p>But we can do this: no matter what our choice was, let our daughters and our future daughters-in-law and our sons and future sons-in-laws know that if they decide to work full time with an infant: Great! If they decide to be a stay-at-home parent: Great!</p>

112

<p>AMEN ALUMOTHER!!!</p>

<p>I agree 100%</p>

<p>The part that bugged me: when I was little my mom was that kind of devoted, in-love mother and yet because she was the SAHM married to a very bossy 1950’s guy who did jack s*** around the house, she wore thin. She so badly wanted me to go be a career woman & not be financially dependent on a man… it trumped her maternal awareness and her ability to prepare me for the mother’s role.</p>

113

<p>I confess, I didn’t read every post in depth tonight, but I did want to add my 2 cents to the discussion.</p>

<p>I am a mom of three daughters. I have had 22 years to contemplate the message, both spoken and unspoken, that I would send to those daughters with respect to careers, children and marriage (although not necessarily in that order!). I am also a daughter of a hard driven, self made, very successful entrepreneurial businesswoman. I have been both the child of a working parent, and a working parent to my daughters. I am a CPA, and worked full time early in my career, and part time for the past 17 years. </p>

<p>My girls have been given this message - you can do anything that you put your mind to. But make your choices carefully. There are certain careers that allow a lot of flexibility, both in career path, and even in day to day scheduling. Try to determine what your priority will be. If it is your career, gosh - go for it! If it is kids and a marriage, you may want to consider a field that is more flexible. It has been my own personal expericence that a lot of sacrifices must be made when combining kids and a career. Everyone sacrifices, kids, parents, and employers. I am sure that this seems unenlightened to some, but I feel that it is entirely realistic.</p>

<p>There should be no shame in choosing to work full time, and there should be no shame in choosing to stay at home. There should be no shame in being an intelligent young woman who may choose her children as her priority instead of a high powered career. I say, more power to her for knowing herself, and knowing what she wants! We are so lucky to live in an era when we have a choice.</p>

114

<p>

</p>

<p>Lots of thoughtful comments in this thread. Maybe Cynthia’s mom is right, you can’t be the best at both, but for many of us who are content with what we’ve achieved at home and in our careers, best is not the goal.</p>

<p>Like many families, our division of labor evolved over time. Sometimes you just don’t know what’s involved in raising a child or several while you juggle a job until you try it. For us, the best solution was for my husband to stay home full time. We never made a deliberate strategy decision, it just happened because my earning potential at the time was greater. This arrangement worked wonderfully for us, but for sure there were sacrifices.</p>

<p>[The most difficult aspect was at business spouse invited events. The type A male execs were very uncomfortable with the Mr. Moms.] </p>

<p>I’ve been in business for 35 years and have NEVER seen a female executive raise children without making some sort of trade-off. There is no perfection, no best way, but many of us manage to muddle through okay.</p>

<p>I work in an industry that is both heavily skewed toward women employees and extremely high pressured. Many top executives are female and many of them regularly work 24/7. </p>

<p>What I’ve noticed is that few who make it to the top echelons manage to stay there for long if they are also mothers. Somewhere around 40, they start dropping out. I can’t think of any women over 50 who are at the top of their fields who also have children. Maybe it’s their kids’ teenage years that push them over the edge. Maybe they’re financially set and don’t need the aggravation. I really don’t know why but I do know that when I go to business events I’m always the oldest female exec even though there are plenty of male topdogs in their 60’s. </p>

<p>My favorite men-are-on-another planet quote came from the president of a company I worked for who was bemoaning the fact that several of his management team were on maternity leave. He said, “I’ve had three children and never taken a day off work!”</p>

<p>My advice to young women today. Accept that you can’t have it all. Decide what you want most and go for it. My motto: Nothing’s free.</p>

115

<p>

</p>

<p>alum~</p>

<p>OMG, when did you climb inside my head, my heart? Your posts left me breathless…I felt like I could have written them.</p>

<p>I have so many friends who feel like you, so many who, after years of “grieving” the last child that was never to be, went and bought a little puppy on which to shower the excess maternal instinct.</p>

<p>I so admire what you have done with your life, how you have managed to have a marvelous career AND to be an awesome mom. I admire your candor for coming here and saying what is in your heart.</p>

<p>And I thank you for the reminder to be grateful for what I have been afforded. Though I, just as everyone else, get irritated with my spouse and sometimes take him for granted, he did enthusiastically share in my desire for a large family, and he was willing to shoulder the considerable financial burden so that I could have the unparalleled joy of nestling and nursing those teeny tiny helpless little babes. To this day, I still catch myself just staring at my kiddos, simply astounded at their beauty and their unique and complex personalities. Yep, that’s me…Romeo.</p>

<p>I am definitely there with you on that far side of the scale!</p>

<p>love, ~berurah</p>

116

<p>Roby~</p>

<p>SO glad to “see” you!!! I’ve missed you bunches!</p>

<p>alum~</p>

<p>How the heck did you survive kids that didn’t sleep??? ALL of my kids slept through the night (8+ hours, usually 10) by the time they were 9 weeks old! Oldest son was sleeping 12 hours by 6-7 weeks. They also took long afternoon naps. YIKES, I have no idea how you survived!!! ~b.</p>

117

<p>

</p>

<p>Should be put on refrigerator magnets and mouse pads.</p>

118

<p>I don’t know–my son didn’t sleep very well & at age 18, still doesn’t. I was so naive, I had no idea that he was “high maintenance.” My daughter slept through the night at 5 weeks. Neither napped much, even as infants & both have seen more docs & had more health issues than we would have wished.</p>

<p>It is amazing that sometimes careers CAN be more flexible than one might expect. I know several attorneys who have made lifestyle adjustments to spend more time with their kids & growing families. Some permanently adjusted their lives, while some just took detours of varying lengths. Many of them have gone on to attain what they want in career goals: several have become judges (full or part-time), some have become instructors at law school & colleges, some have chosen to work for the government or become corporate counsel. </p>

<p>In the medical profession, it is true that some specialities lend themselves much more to balancing a family life & career. Our pediatrician has chosen to scale back his practice & spend more time with his family by limiting his office hours and greatly restricting new patients. We know several physicians who practice medicine part-time & enjoy the flexibility it allows them.</p>

<p>I know teachers who have adapted their schedules & lives well also, tutoring part-time to have career satisfaction and good income. Life is full of choices–the more resources to build, the more options we have and can work to create the unique blend that works best. It is wonderful to see the solutions that folks craft that work well for them.</p>

119

<br>

<br>

<p>Not just for the benefit for women, but for the benefit of men also!! The quality of life for men could improve if they were able to spend more time with their children.</p>

120

<p>My cousin is a top exec at IBM. She has one child who is 19. She is 52. She does want to retire though ;)</p>

<p>Another cousin just took a top administrative post at a prestigious top 25 university. She is 56 and has always been the main breadwinner. She raised three boys with her husband. She has no interest in retiring. they relocated across the country to take the posting.</p>

<p>Another friend just got promoted to a top spot at a top medical school. She is 55, Harvard grad. She raised three children, the youngest is 19. She’s not interested in retiring.</p>

<p>Admittedly, career choice does help, as does self-employment–but there are cases of top female executives succeeding despite their other full-time jobs.</p>

<p>As for my boys’ expectations…I assume they will sort it out. Ideally, I will leave enough money in trusts to send grandchildren to college and put a deposit on their first house. Take those two biggies away and lifestyle/career questions get a lot easier…</p>