Where do smart (high SAT) and lazy (low GPA) kids go?

[YoHoYoHo]

Op,
Your kid sounds exactly like my kid.
UW gpa 3.22, ACT 35, elite private HS, interested in animation, with ADHD unt attentive and Executive function difficulties.

I sent you a Private message.

[LANSHEN]

Thanks everyone for your input.

We will definitely figure out the ADHD thing. As for college list, here are our basic strategies.

We will focus on LACs below Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Pomonoa which are just as selective as prestigious universities—-

Bowdoin 
Carleton
        Wesleyan 
Vassar
Oberlin
Grinnell
Barnard

I am not sure whether these are reaches or matches. But I feel that these are the kinds of colleges that she has realistic chances and can also fit in.

1. D will also apply for more EAs and use the results to guide the RD applications. Here are some schools with an EA option (December notification, otherwise no help for RD)

     Chicago (D likes Uchicago’s weird essay questions and are willing to take a shot)
     Colorado
     Bard
     Wheaton (IL)
    Emerson
    Chapman
    Loyola Marymount University
   

2. D is undecided in terms of ED. If we allow her to aim high, she would probably apply for Williams (over Amherst because of arts history ) or Columbia (her dream for quit some time now) for ED. But then we are worried about losing the chance at some of her target schools. However, her argument is that she would not lose out anything because all the above target schools have EDII.

I would appreciate any takes on D’s ED and additions to the her EA list.

[collegemom3717]

Some people do better at project work- short, focused pushes- and some do better at a steady pace. That’s just people, and if you think about co-workers you can usually sort them pretty quickly in your mind.

My D1 had a (foreign) language teacher who despaired of her in high school, saying ‘if you would just do 15 minutes a night, you would be top of the class’. What the teacher didn’t understand was that you might as well ask my D to fly to the moon: she just doesn’t work that way. When she got to Oxford (UK, not MS!), she loved it, b/c the work is in short, very intense batches. By the same token, UK students who come to the US for a ‘year abroad’ in university often struggle with how much continuous assessment there is, which reminds them (unfavorably) of secondary school.

So, @LANSHEN, if your D is a project-type, I would hesitate to recommend Vassar for her - even though I am a big fan of the school. D2 is the opposite of her sister- a steady worker type- and Vassar suits her very well. There may well be project workers thriving there, but in D2s friend group they all seem to work a lot, very steadily. I know- not a representative sample, but a data point for consideration.

If cost isn’t too big an issue (fin aid is negligible), the UK environment might suit your D, b/c you study just one thing: you do apply to do your ‘major’ and that’s all you study. Admissions are based largely on test scores- GPA and ECs not related to your subject are not important. Except for Oxford, Cambridge and one or two others, if your D has the standardized test scores that are required for the course (all helpfully detailed online) she is pretty sure to get an offer. For Oxbridge (you apply to just one), there are extra hoops to jump through, often including further tests or submitted work and always an interview with the tutors (professors) who teach your subject.

In the US, focused schools (like the RISD or some of the others that have been suggested), or schools that give you a lot of control over what you study (Brown) might be better bets, but also look at how assessment is done: courses with a midterm and a final might suit her better than courses with regular assignments. I know two very smart kids at Colorado College who are very happy there b/c of the block system, though it is worth noting that the student body is pretty outdoorsy and pretty homogenous economically.

Finally, if your D is thinking Columbia, she should look closely at the core curriculum and be sure that it sounds like a wonderful way to spend 2 years. And, without debating her admissions chances, Columbia & Stanford are pretty opposite experiences, so teasing out what is attractive to her about them is probably a useful exercise.

[toowonderful]

May I suggest Kenyon College to add to your list of LACs (and not far from Oberlin if you are making the trip to visiti). Her GPA is low for them- but they pride themselves on a wholistic application approach - and their curriculum etc really set them apart.

Side note- my D’s ADD not diagnosed until HS (I always assumed laziness, and just stayed on her 24/7) getting proper treatment a complete game changer for her- I strongly recommend investigating)

[MidwestDad3]

IMO she might do best at a smaller, less competitive LAC with lots of resources directed toward small groups of students. This would include many of the CTCL schools. At schools like Vassar, Carleton, Grinnell, Barnard etc she might consistently be scoring at the bottom of each class, which can get discouraging very quickly. Why not look at Earlham, Wooster, Denison, St. Lawrence, Sewanee, and other schools like this? They have wonderful professors, an outstanding curriculum, and very successful graduates. What sets them apart from the schools on your list, OP, is that they have accepted a wider range of student abilities than the schools on your list. The top students have the same great opportunities at Fulbrights and top grad schools. But the students who come in with the 3.3 gpas get the support they need to thrive. Wooster, in particular, is known for supporting this type of student. Have a look at their outstanding senior research program of one-to-one mentored scholarship.

[momofthreeboys]

Oh my, I have a friend dealing with a 34 ACT (first try) and a 2.8 GPA boy…not fun, but her strategy is absolutely the wonderful midwest LACs so he will have choices and a change at GPA redemption in college.

[CaliCash]

I despair for a world where an unweighted B+ average is considered a symptom of a serious disorder. I considered my younger son a good student with the same. His test scores weren’t in this girl’s league, and he was accepted at 10 good colleges, including schools as selective at UCSD, Pitzer, Tulane, and Occidental. Really, folks! This is an exceptionally bright kid who has been able to coast through high school. She might find college much more stimulating. Heck, she’s a teenager, who might even mature. This automatic medicalization of anything less than a perfect academic record makes me wanna start throwing things and scrawling graffiti in the girls’ room.

THIS.

[CaliCash]

The only people who need medical attention are the ones on this thread. She needs to be pumped with medicine because she is lazy, disorganized, and doesn’t turn in homework on time? So freaking what? She’s a teenager. Just because someone isn’t as perfect as you may think your child is doesn’t mean they have some disorder. This is absolute lunacy. A B+ average and high SAT scores and all of a sudden she has ADD or some Executive Function disorder? OP, PLEASE ignore the garbage being thrown at you. She doesn’t need medication and you shouldn’t be pumping her with meds just because she has a low GPA. I know plenty of bright students who just couldn’t give a damn. That doesn’t mean they have a mental disorder. Save your money and encourage her to take classes she will enjoy. Then, she will succeed. Don’t blame any low grades on some potential disorder. Tell her to hold herself accountable, stop being lazy and do the work. But your daughter doesn’t need medical attention for a high SAT and low GPA. Your daughter is this thing us common folk like to call ** HUMAN**.

[BeeDAre]

Some kids may be just lazy and undisciplined, but some kids have an undiagnosed LD; some kids may suffer from mild depression or a stressful situation outside of school… some may just be bored.

It’s always a good thing to get at the bottom of what is motivating a student - or what’s not motivating them. It can only help.

Humans are complex emotional beings and often, telling a very hormonal - therefore, very emotional - teen, to just buckle down and stop being lazy, often doesn’t work and can even be counter-productive. They may not know HOW to stop being lazy and become more disciplined. Different methods work for different people.

Believe me, most teens who receive bad grades for whatever reason, do, indeed, hold themselves accountable…

[collegemom3717]

Not disagreeing with the people saying be careful not to jump to ADD / LD, but also disagreeing with the people who are jumping straight to ADD = medicating. People “diagnosed” with ADD in HS/college/adult life tend NOT to be medicated- most are taught systems for how to manage their lives more effectively. Does this need a ‘medical diagnosis’? no: these tools exist for everybody. But, I have seen young adults become much more successful at student life when they get help putting those systems in place.

[panpacific]

With a GPA of 3.3, schools like Chicago and columbia are not “mission impossible” but for non recruited athletes are unlikely. I agree you should target LACs with 20-30ish admit rates and apply many of them. Does her school have something like Naviance, or do they have enough historic data to show a trend? Some colleges tend to accept more students from certain high schools year after year because of long term relationships between the institutions.

[momofthreeboys]

I’m definitely not in the “drug your way to an A” camp and I really think most aware parents know when they have a smart slacker vs. a kid with disabilities. I had a smart slacker…my first. He disliked high school and loved college. I also have one with a disability…a junior in engineering. There is a huge, huge, abundance of colleges that like B students with good national test scores. There are also many colleges that will take a chance on a male with a low B GPA and good test scores.

[Cardinal_Fang]

I despair for a world where an unweighted B+ average is considered a symptom of a serious disorder.

It’s not the B+ average that suggests that the student might have ADHD or executive functioning problems. She has super-high scores, and this:

Every teacher speaks very high of her… but then in school report card, almost every subject (including her beloved ones such as English and Arts ) reads like “low efforts,” “needs more participation,” late homework," and so forth. We just found out that she probably ranks in bottom half of her class in terms of GPA.

But the bigger patterns are the lack of organization and the difficulty of getting things done. For example, she often forgot deadlines; even she’s aware of deadlines, she’d wait until the last day; and in the last day, she’d wait until the last hour; when she could not finish in time, she wouldn’t bother to turn it in; and worse, she’d behave like nothing happens.

She’s underachieving with respect to her scores. She is disorganized and can’t get things done. These symptoms suggest further testing is in order to rule out ADHD. Is she disorganized because she’s bored, or because being organized is extremely difficult for her? If she’s just bored, then when she gets un-bored she can succeed. If she’s not succeeding because of inability to get organized, being interested in the subjects isn’t going to be enough, and she’ll need some coping strategies.

[MidwestDad3]

“The only people who need medical attention are the ones on this thread.”

When there is as significant of a disparity between standardized testing and classroom performance as exists here, IMO it is entirely appropriate to rule out a possible psychiatric cause. Sure, it may be nothing. But if there is something heretofore unknown that requires attention, you are doing the student a huge favor by addressing it now, before he or she gets to college. To avoid looking into it, to my mind, contributes to perpetuating the stigma that exists around mental health.

Cali, I often admire your posts but I can’t agree with your position here. Seems overly strident to me.

[twoinanddone]

I think we’re judging the student on American standards but she attends a Chinese School. Maybe 3.3 is top of her class there, or maybe the school grades on a scale where you have to do more than just show up to get an A, even if you are really smart. Many many schools will want her, give her scholarships.

I think her list of schools should be made just like every other kid’s lists are made - find one or two safety schools, find some matches, and then throw in a reach or two.

[panpacific]

^^OP said earlier, “We just found out that she probably ranks in bottom half of her class in terms of GPA.” Even if one takes the most rigorous classes, 3.3 is too low for the most selective colleges. She needs other factors strong enough to make up that deficiency to “have a case”. Of course, holistic admission means “anything” is possible, well almost. But if you talk about odds, the low GPA puts her in “unlikely” category for Chicago and Columbia.

[katliamom]

OP, please don’t let critics of medical testing deter you from actually doing so.

I was also one of these parents impatient about the quickness to “medicalize” (as someone put it) behaviors such as lack of organization. I also thought it was “laziness” or lack of maturity, etc.

Well guess what. My smart-but-underachieving son suffered a total nervous breakdown as a college freshman. His issues weren’t laziness or lack or maturity, but rather an undiagnozed executive functions disorder, an LD with atypical symptoms (hence teacher’s lack of recognizing it) and depression.

He’s on meds now. He sees a therapists. He can finally function in school. All because he got the help he needed – help I was late in providing because I listened to skeptics (and was skeptical myself). I will never forgive myself for failing my son when he needed expert medical help. I feel profoundly lucky he did get the help he needed before it was too late.

Don’t make the same mistake. Have your daughter tested; have her speak to an expert. If your daughter doesn’t have a medical/psychological problem, rejoice. If she does, you will have avoided years of difficulty she’d face in college. Either way, you will have done the right thing.

[SlackerMomMD]

I highly recommend getting your child fully evaluated. My kids had issues very early in their education, so I had each evaluated in first or second grade. In one case, specialized tutoring resolved the issue. In the other case, more extensive therapy and tutoring is needed. The thing is, you just don’t know what is going on or what to do until the child is evaluated.

[DrGoogle]

I guess it doesn’t hurt to have her at least tested. I was an ADD kid and so was my nephew but I don’t think either of us took any medicine.

[CaliCash]

So the response to her having low grades is make her think there is something wrong with her instead of holding her accountable to do her work? Why is the first response to someone with low grades “have they tested for a mental defect?)” Maybe she just doesn’t like school. There are tons of smart people out there who hate school. Just because someone doesn’t do their work doesn’t mean they don’t understand it. They just don’t wanna do it. It’s called procrastination and everyone does it.

Do parents need to be diagnosed with a disorder when they wait until the last minute to pay their bills? Or if they wait until they are on empty to fill up ther has tanks? Oh or maybe when they run late in the morning to their executive positions at work. Oh yeah. Definitely signs of a mental defect.

Seriously. Just stop. -_-