<p>My D will likely end up in the bottom quarter of her class in one of the most competitive public high schools in the U.S. She’s well rounded, well liked but B average drags her to 4Q. as all parents of smart kids in tough schools know, a 4Q in an academically rigorous school does not equal 4Q in a normal h.s. i cringe at the thought of her ending up in a college with kids who are 3Q and 4Q of normal high schools. So what colleges/ universities do the bottom quarter of ultra competitive high schools attend with other 4Qs from similarly academically rigorous high schools ?? She’s great in musical theater but wants a broader education, including business. btw, the 2 largest and most prestigious State universities – Texas and Texas A&M – only accept the top 10% of each TX high school class, so Tier 1 State public universities aren’t even “safety schools” for 4Q’s.</p>
<p>tell us a little about SAT and outside activities…there may be many exclent schools for her to consider…some schools don’t look at class rank…</p>
<p>I am a LAC proponent and have looked a several of them for my D so i may be able to help in the group of schools…</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but as a graduate of on of the most competitive publics in the country, I can tell you that those in the bottom quartile went to college, but nowhere particularly spectacular. Schools like Adelphi would be on the upper end of what the bottom quarter achieve from my alma mater.</p>
<p>Some students start out at community colleges within their states and transfer to the state U. Many CC’s have a relationship whereby students can make this transfer. Perhaps that is an option in Texas.</p>
<p>I’m still trying to find a true definition of a “Competitive” high school. Or in your case an “Ultra-Competitive” high school. My son and I finished applications to 7 colleges/universities. Each one looked through the school profile to see what was offered for a curriculum. While his high school is a regular public school, it offers the IB program for 9th-12th grade as well as many AP classes. Just about every application we looked at basically asked the same 3 questions.</p>
<ol>
<li>Was the IB program or AP classes offered at your school? Yes/No</li>
<li>If they WERE available, did you take IB/AP classes? Yes/No</li>
<li>If these classes were available and you DIDN’T take them, Why?</li>
</ol>
<p>According to the couple of admissions offices we spoke with initially during my son’s Junior year, as well as his guidance counselor, the general consensus was that they would rather see a 3.50-3.75 gpa in IB/AP than a 4.0 gpa in not as challenging classes. YET, there is a bell curve here. They also all agreed that a 4.0 gpa in “normal” classes is better than a 2.5 gpa in IB/AP classes. So, not knowing the advantage of a “Competitive” school other than maybe a higher level of discipline and such, I’m not sure academically if there even is an advantage in the course work of a “Competitive” high school. The study habits, confidence, challenge, etc… of the IB program and AP classes can more than prepare an individual for college.</p>
<p>Also, while I know you didn’t mean it to sound this way, to some it would sound like you are implying that those who go to “Normal” colleges or come from “Normal” high schools are somehow a different sub-species. But, just as the colleges give more weight and emphasis to the IB program and AP classes, I’m sure they give more weight and consideration to the so called “Competitive” schools.</p>
<p>FWIW; as of the 2006 stats; only 65.8% of high school graduates went on to college. That usually means that not a whole lot of those in the bottom quarter of their high school class is even going to college immediately after graduation. There seems to be a lot of well educated kids from every type of high school going to every type of college.</p>
<p>There are a great many communities where at least the local community considers the school system to be strong and rigorous/competitive. Strong SAT’s and SATII’s might help a little to overcome a low class rank. On the other hand, if I were in admissions, I would give the edge to the applicant who did not have the advantages of attending a strong public school system.</p>
<p>What a great question to ask! I look forward to seeing what people say.</p>
<p>My kids’ large urban public academic magnet was competitive, but in context that means that the bottom-ranked 25% of the kids go to some college at all. (Most of the regular high schools in the district struggle to get the top quartile of their graduating classes to go to college, and that’s out of the 40% that haven’t dropped out since 9th grade.) They go mainly where you seem to fear: community college, second- and third-tier state colleges, local Catholic commuter schools, degree-granting for-profit trade schools. Few even consider LACs. It’s roughly the same, I think, at the competitive suburban school districts around here.</p>
<p>At the elite private school they used to attend, the bottom quarter of the class tends to go to Colleges-That-Change-Lives-type LACs and small universities (off the top of my head, I know of kids at St. Olaf’s, Kalamazoo, Hampshire, Elon, Redlands, Ursinus, Earlham), although an increasing number seem to be opting for the second- and third-tier in-state public colleges that the public school kids choose, and some go to out-of-state public universities. </p>
<p>Note that the average SATs of the bottom-quarter private school kids are probably 250-300 points higher than those of the public school kids, they have loving counseling and packaging by the school, and almost all of them can afford to pay full freight for college. So it’s really apples-to-oranges comparing them with the public school kids.</p>
<p>I also have some relatives who recently graduated in the bottom quarter (probably bottom 5%) of their competitive Westchester County public school. (Well, one graduated, the other was forced to seek a diploma elsewhere.) One is now a senior at Hunter College (and doing really well), the other a post-gap-year, post-aborted-semester-at-a-Los-Angeles-community-college freshman at Nazareth College near Rochester. The latter was accepted at Arizona State and planned to go there, but had a last minute change of plans due to tragic family circumstances.</p>
<p>I really don’t know how competitive your D’s high school is, but the colleges will read your high school’s profile (if your high school sends one). Admission offices are aware of differences between high schools. This is why standardized tests are important. They can be a an “equalizer”. I would make sure she preps for it. I think that kids who go to competitive high schools and are not good standardized test takers really get the short end of the stick. Does your D’s hs rank? Our hs does not, because they do not feel it is fair to do so based on the individual nature of our hs. BTW, students from our high school that are not star students still have some very nice options (my opinion, and you might not want those schools for your child) if they have guidance. I think having your D in a school that is the best fit for her is more important than prestige and rankings.</p>
<p>The idea that this type of student can only go to community college is ridiculous. My son is in the bottom quarter of a class of 155. They don’t rank, but his average is a weak 87. When I say weak, I mean it’s that high with gym, band etc… He has half honors and half regular courses. His SAT is 590 cr, 680 Math and 600 writing with a 27 ACT. </p>
<p>He has been accepted to 6 schools, and waiting to hear from 4 more. He is in at Ursinus, McDaniel, Susquehanna, Goucher, Umaine and Moravian. He is waiting to hear from St. Lawrence, Gettysburg, Hartwick and Clarkson.</p>
<p>95% of the graduates of his school go on to college. The colleges know this and although he is certainly not IVY or even top LAC material, he is tops 100 LAC material. I think he could have even reached a little higher, but we were also looking for good financial aid, so figured no point in reaching. Additionally, after so many years in such a competitive environment, we felt he might learn a bit better being able to be in the top half vs the bottom half.</p>
<p>There ARE kids who go to UT and A&M who are not in the top 10 of their class.</p>
<p>We’re thinking about Texas Tech as a safety for my son. I bring this up because they have this “Assured Admission Chart” that says if you have this class rank and that SAT score, you are assured admission. Here are their numbers:</p>
<p>Class Rank Minimum SAT Score
top 10% no minimum
1st quarter 1140
2nd quarter 1230
second half 1270</p>
<p>My son’s CR+ math = 1310, so he would have “assured admission” to Tech even if he graduates 661 out of 661.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that your dauighter should go to Tech. I’m just saying that Tech can’t be the only school who takes decent SAT scores into account, no matter what your class rank.</p>
<p>I’d love to know where the bottom quarter of schools like Thomas Jefferson in VA or Stuyvesant in NY, or the top boarding schools like Exeter and Andover go. Back when Madeira was a top boarding school (before Exeter and Andover went co-ed) they tended to go to small girls colleges places like Sweet Briar or Vassar (where we had pull through historical connections). I know at least one girl who ended up at Vassar when all the schools she’d applied to rejected her.</p>
<p>I know as a parent at a good, but not great comprehensive high school - parents have to make this choice all the time.Without a crystal ball you don’t know what the college choices would be for the kids in the bottom quarter of an academic magnet school or an elite private be compared to near the top of a more average high school? In the end we made the choice to keep our son in the good enough local high school. Easier on our wallet and we felt there were enough AP courses to keep him occupied. My sister-in-law had her son (who is very similar to mine) at a top private school (on full scholarship) and in the end their college acceptances and rejections were pretty similar. (I don’t think her son was in the bottom quarter, but he wasn’t in the tippy-top either.) She did end up feeling that the GCs didn’t care that much about her kid, whereas our GC was rooting hard for our son.</p>
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<p>Oh I agree fully. But IF this student wants to attend the flagship U in Texas…this MIGHT be one means to that end.</p>
<p>We really don’t know much about this student other than her class rank. As pointed out above…her standardized test scores and other information will help round out her application…maybe not to UT, but certainly to many other schools.</p>
<p>Let’s face it…not every college student in the country is in the top 10% of the HS graduating class. AND not every student in college even attended a “ultra competitive public high school”.</p>
<p>Does this OP’s high school have a guidance department? Seems to me THEY might be able to give the OPs daughter some direction as well.</p>
<p>There are 1,600 four year colleges and universities in the U.S. Once you go past the first two hundred, and especially the first 300, they take virtually anyone who has a pulse, and can pay the bill. Some of them have fantastic faculty and facilities. </p>
<p>It would be quicker to make a list of where the bottom quarter doesn’t go than where they do. </p>
<p>“I’d love to know where the bottom quarter of schools like Thomas Jefferson in VA or Stuyvesant in NY”</p>
<p>In my day, the Stuyvesant City or Brooklyn College rejects went to Hofstra or NYU, if they had the money.</p>
<p>One important question is whether your child’s school can leave the rank section black on her applications. My school does not give out rank except in special cases.</p>
<p>I went to a “competitive” private school (as in, best in region, 100% go to 4-year colleges, every year students go to some of the top few schools in the country, I think 15% of my graduating class had at least one 800 on the SATs, etc.) in MA, and the bottom half is essentially made up of nice kids who are pretty smart and–most of all–try hard. They go to nearby state schools (Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Vermont), Northeastern, Boston University, Roger Williams, Providence College, Hofstra, American, RIT, Wentworth, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, Elon, Drew, Bently, Colby-Sawyer, Hampshire, Berklee College of Music, Emerson, and a whole bunch of other schools, including lots of small, relatively unknown LACs and in a few cases more local state schools. Students willing to travel outside of their region increase their options dramatically right away; most students from my school stick around New England. There are hundreds of good colleges in the US, and I’m sure there are many your daughter will love. </p>
<p>I’m assuming your daughter’s HS has a good college adviser if it’s so competitive. You should start there.</p>
<p>there are hundreds and hundreds of great schools out there</p>
<p>the texas system is “interesting”</p>
<p>Kind of scary that people can have a B average or an 87 and be in the bottom quarter…are teachers terrified to give anyone D’s?</p>
<p>But admissions officers usually know your particular school, so the rank would be put in perspective.</p>
<p>My kids go to a “competitive” but not “ultra-competitive” high school, bottom fourth go to community college, lesser known state colleges, small Catholic colleges, a variety of more expensive out of state private and public.</p>
<p>Here’s the website for Boston Latin, a public high school probably on a par with Thomas Jefferson and Stuyvesant.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bls.org/cfml/l3tmpl.cfm?page=College%20Counseling[/url]”>http://www.bls.org/cfml/l3tmpl.cfm?page=College%20Counseling</a></p>
<p>Click on Acceptance/Enrollment '04-'07 (or Class of 2007 Acceptances) in the left-hand pane. That will allow you to open or download a spreadsheet that shows you where kids were accepted, how many were accepted and how many enrolled at various colleges and universities. Some of these students surely were in the bottom quarter of their class.</p>
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<p>You and me both, Christcorp. What exactly determines that a school is “one of the most competitive public high schools in the U.S.?” What are the determinative factors and who is it who actually makes the comparisons necessary for a school to be able to call/consider/boast that title?</p>
<p>I guess ultra-competitive is one where 100% of kids go to TOP tier colleges?</p>
<p>bravestrong - I’m curious about how your school weights classes and computes rank/gpa. My d graduated from a decent h.s. in the suburbs of Houston and my son attends that school now. (I used to think it was ‘competitive’, but have come to the conclusion that is a term that is really fluid and pretty much meaningless.)</p>
<p>Every CC regular here knows what I personally think of the top ten percent law, so I won’t get into that. But I do know it is quite possible to have a B average and end up in the bottom half in our district. And because AP and Honors classes do not receive additional weighting, and because the top ten percent law is in play, the ranking games played are pretty atrocious. A common dilemma here is seeing students who have taking every possible AP ranked outside the top ten percent, while students who avoid those classes rank near the top. If your daughter is one of those students who took the most challenging coursework available to her and made Bs, Texas A&M is not a school she should consider out of her reach. A&M is not so overwhelmed by top ten percent applicants that no spots are available to students outside the top ten percent… and strong coursework, a willingness to push oneself, and good ecs are considered. </p>
<p>They also offer an admissions program called “Blinn Team” that you may look into if she applies and is waitlisted at A&M. My niece, who attended a good Austin high school, graduated with strong coursework and average grades. (What can a I say…she’s incredibly bright, but was very popular and ‘social’ during her high school years.) She was accepted to A&M through Blinn Team and during her Blinn semesters, she lived on campus in A&M housing and was indistinguishable from any other A&M student. This is one advantage over the CAP program at UT. She will soon graduate from A&M with a business degree and a 3.7 GPA 
)</p>
<p>Tech is a school that is definitely reaping the benefit of the top ten percent law. The overspill of quality kids into schools like Tech has enhanced their prestige factor. Also, are private schools like SMU or TCU out of the question financially? Those are also respectable options.</p>