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</p>
<p>Do robbery victims have to prove they didn’t just give their belongings away?</p>
<p>In my state, people are presumed innocent until proven guilty.</p>
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</p>
<p>Even the victims?</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/24/justice/woman-blamed-for-her-rape/”>Pennsylvania woman blamed for her own rape - CNN;
<p><a href=“Anti-Rape PSAs That Blame the Victim”>Anti-Rape PSAs That Blame the Victim;
<p><a href=“Why Do We Blame Victims? | Psychology Today”>http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/in-love-and-war/201311/why-do-we-blame-victims</a></p>
<p>You have to prove you are a victim. I’m not saying the victim should be blamed for her rape. That’s absurd and you know this. I’m saying that she cannot say she was raped unless it can be proved. You just can’t say I was raped without any evidence to back it up. There are an increasing number of times including incidents discussed on cc that the view was the men are guilty until proven innocent. That’s not the way our legal sysytem works. </p>
<p>I was recently on a jury, where the case involved a wife who was claiming she was being beaten by her billionaire husband. There was evidence that in the past it happened but because of the statute of limitations, we were only to deal with the latest incidents of which there was not sufficient evidence. He was found innocent since the burden of proof rested on her even though we all felt that he was probably guilty. It was a unanimous decision with a jury of 4 women and 2 men.</p>
<p>I suspect Ghomeshi is going to settle. It’s one thing to say that a woman consented to having sex, because after all, most women do consent to having sex at one point or other in their lives, so we can at least imagine reasonable doubt. But to consent to being choked and smacked? I plan to go through my entire life never consenting to those things, and I suspect that’s true of most other women.</p>
<p>Wow, what an interesting thread for me to have missed!</p>
<ol>
<li> I absolutely consider myself a feminist. Talking about feminism, studying it, learning about it, was pretty central to building a relationship with the woman I eventually married, and several other friendships that have been important to me. I am (as most of you know) a man, and a pretty standard-issue man at that, but I try to bring some sort of feminist consciousness to everything I do.</li>
</ol>
<p>My wife is a feminist, and very proud of it. She likes fashion, and sometimes buys Vogue, but tends not to like sexualized pictures of teenaged models. She has spent most of her working life (which rarely involves less than 15 hours/day) trying to improve life conditions for women and children. That is not the only thing she cares about in the world, but it has filled up her time and plenty remains to be done, so she doesn’t spend a lot of time fretting whether she shouldn’t be spending more of her time on men’s issues.</p>
<p>Our daughter also very deliberately calls herself a feminist. She is not as professionally involved in so-called “women’s issues” as her mother, but she has decided to do pro-choice political work as a volunteer and contributor.</p>
<p>I don’t know whether our son calls himself a feminist, but all of his girlfriends have identified themselves that way. (He has been a serial monogamist since 5th grade. I think he’s especially attractive to strongly feminist women because he has no conception that women should be anything else.)</p>
<ol>
<li> No one should take seriously anything in The Atlantic about feminism. For some reason, part of The Atlantic’s shtick these days to to publish journalists like Caitlin Flanagan and Hanna Roisin who attach the label “feminist” to outrageous positions they then purport to debunk. That’s not to say that Flanagan and Roisin aren’t interesting journalists – they are – but as far as I can tell their attitude about feminism is about one degree different from zoosermom’s. Which is to say, I respect their right to have any feelings they wish, but it doesn’t exactly advance communication when your position is “Feminism is whatever I think it is, and I’m not going to tell you what that is, except that it’s horrible.” I don’t have to respect that as a thoughtful position when I don’t have access to any of the thought. (Zoosermom, in her last post, did say something substantive, but I am gobsmacked at the notion that “feminism excludes anyone who isn’t exclusively female.” I do not know of a single feminist whose views could be characterized that way.<br></li>
</ol>
<p>The allegations against Ghomesi, are harrassment as well as assault.
Harrassment isn’t always easy to prove, which is possibly why most victims don’t report it.
Who would they report it to?
Same with physical assault that didn’t leave physical evidence.
Being choked and slapped, won’t leave marks unless you were actually strangled.
But when victims find they share an attacker, they may gain courage in numbers, and speak out.
<a href=“http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/30/sexual-assault-canada_n_6074994.html”>http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2014/10/30/sexual-assault-canada_n_6074994.html</a>
<a href=“Lucy DeCoutere Opens Up To CBC's 'The Current' About Jian Ghomeshi | HuffPost News”>Lucy DeCoutere Opens Up To CBC's 'The Current' About Jian Ghomeshi | HuffPost News;
<p>When I was grabbed, my clothing pushed away by a group of boys, it didn’t leave physical evidence. They had a hold of my arms and legs, how was I supposed to fight them off?
How was I supposed to prove that it happened other than, why would I make something like that up?</p>
<p>Allegedly in some cases Ghomeshi left bruises and there are pictures. That’s not to say that everyone who is raped or assaulted can show physical evidence of the assault, but allegedly some of Ghomeshi’s victims could.</p>
<p>It’s heartbreaking to read the #BeenRapedNeverReported tweets. Lots of women have a belief that reporting their rape ends up being a second assault, and that’s a well-founded belief in many cases.</p>
<p>" When I was grabbed, my clothing pushed away by a group of boys, it didn’t leave physical evidence. They had a hold of my arms and legs, how was I supposed to fight them off?
How was I supposed to prove that it happened other than, why would I make something like that up?"</p>
<p>Someone can’t be tried and convicted, purely because of, “Why would I make something like that up?”
Though I think a jury would take having no motive other than the truth, into account. I would think you would have to have another witness, a rape kit, put the person in the location, an admittance of guilt, something. Everyone was ready to believe the Duke lacrosse rape accusations, because why would she make something like that up? Sexual assault without a witness or physical evidence seems hard to prove. Which is why any woman who is raped needs to go to the emergency room immediately, before taking a shower, before doing anything at all (except for calling the police).</p>
<p>I was 12. I wasnt raped during that incident.
They do find people guilty based on circumstantial evidence however, and had the boys been questioned seperately, it’s probable that at least one of them would have confessed.
It’s also possible that a witness would have come forward.</p>
<p>Even when there is blatant physical evidence, like in my case, it is still hard to get a conviction. </p>
<p>I honestly don’t blame survivors for not coming forward as often. Many (most?) cops are completely incompetent in this area and it feels like being revictimized- especially when you come forward and the assailant goes free. </p>
<p>And in the case of when I was raped, but I didn’t have any bones broken or unusual bruising, and the only witness was the assailants sister, I was afraid of retaliation.</p>
<p>“I honestly don’t blame survivors for not coming forward as often. Many (most?) cops are completely incompetent in this area and it feels like being revictimized- especially when you come forward and the assailant goes free.”</p>
<p>A woman I know from work’s teenage son was homosexually raped by two college students. These were young men that he thought were his friends. It was brutal, devastating, and afterwards the main instigator sent him texts to torment him. It’s been over a year, and I still think he hasn’t filed a police report. The lawyer said he could wait a certain amount of time, as he had been so traumatized. But as a parent, I would still be traumatized that the men hadn’t yet been charged, and would think that the longer the wait, the worse. And thinking about all the other potential victims. I don’t think those young men would still be walking this earth if it was my kid.</p>
<p>As much as I deplore the way rape accusers are treated by the police, if I were sitting on a rape jury and all I had was his testimony and her testimony, how could I convict? Very likely I’d believe she was telling the truth, but I don’t see how I’d get past reasonable doubt.</p>
<p>This thread has gotten very heavy. I am sorry for those who have been abused. Very sorry .</p>
<p>Busdriver’s friend’s son thinks he would be re-victimized if he reported because he would be.</p>
<p>Yes, he would be. But knowing your attacker roams free to continue to attack, laughing about it and getting away with it, mocking you…in my opinion, would be worse. Knowing he was in prison, and not having a bright future after college, would make it worth it. As hard as it would be to go through it again. For me, the only two options would be justice or revenge. I realize that some people would prefer not to go through it.</p>
<p>I understand that sentiment, busdriver, but the “knowing he was in prison” part is far from a certainty. Most reported rapes don’t end in a conviction, or even in the accused person being charged with a crime.</p>
<p>That is true, but being accused, and going through the trial…even if you get away with it, is better than continuing to torment your accuser, being the popular kid at college, and starring in your school play. At the very least, other people would know. Being accused of something like that, whether you walk or not, is something. Plus, there’s the possibility that more people would step up. Otherwise, you spend your life in therapy, feeling like a victim forever. Whether he walked or not. They still have the texts as evidence, and I think that can be pretty incriminating.</p>
<p>But the accused probably wouldn’t even go to trial. He probably wouldn’t be charged. </p>
<p>If it were me, I’d probably report the crime, because I’m stubborn. But I can’t blame anyone else for not wanting to go through a painful process that will probably result in their attacker walking free and knowing they reported him.</p>