Example: Students with aspirations in medicine and engineering often feel that they have to choose between the two early in terms of fitting in all of the course requirements for both. Or they try to compromise with biomedical engineering, which is less optimal for either direction.
Going back to school later for a second BA/BS or unfunded MA/MS in another subject can be quite expensive.
So the student often must decide as a high school senior how realistic the goals of medicine and engineering are for him/her.
I don’t buy into the notion of peer group stratification – as if the pre-med students and faculty at a school like Hofstra are all idiots because somehow the laws of physics change when taught in a Hoffstra lab as opposed to a lab at Columbia.
“Pre-med” is not a major. It is a set of required courses that can be completed by pre-med students as well as humanity majors. But pre-med requires a series of fairly difficult courses, and the same textbooks may be used at lower ranked as are used in the prestige schools. And the profs who are teaching those courses are going be PhD’s in biology or chem or physics who are teaching undergrads – meaning wherever the student goes, the profs are almost always going to be a lot more knowledgeable than ther students.
And when it come to the profs, level of expertise and accomplishment don’t always go hand in hand with teaching ability. Someone who walks into the classroom without the pre-conceived notion that all of the students are brilliant simply because they managed to get admitted to the Ivy-caliber school may also over time become a much better teacher… simply because that teacher may take an approach more geared to assuring that the students in the classroom are getting the concepts.
Plus, everywhere your student goes there will be others with similar economic pressures. Hunting for merit aid? Guess what… you aren’t the only one.
Factors like class size and quality of lab facilities might be a lot more important than prestige or name recognizition. There are limitations to what can be done in a lab based on the quality and availability of equipment.
I do think that for a specific question like, where to go for pre-med – a different thread would be appropriate. It really has nothing to do with prestige, because it is far more important where doctors get their medical degrees and where they complete their residencies than where they went to undergrad.
There is a universe of undergrad colleges and universities that are taken seriously for med school admissions… and probably a universe of schools that would not be taken seriously – but that universe is much larger than the US News list. And some data about med school admissions from each school would probably be helpful, just to verify that students from College X regularly do manage to get admitted, whatever the overall percentages might be.
@uskoolfish I have been thinking about your comment about Hofstra - that you would be happy to let a kid go to the 4X4 program but not to the school otherwise. I think that might be justified if the school reserves its best research and internship opportunities for the 4X4 kids or something similar. But it does imply that you think Hofstra undergrad would be rigorous enough to adequately prepare the kids in the program for success in medical school. Given that the 4X4 kids will be in regular classes with the entire community, it also assumes that you believe they will be too insular to interact with any other extremely smart kids in those classes. I’m not sure thats a good assumption.
I went to college eons ago but even then- the kids in the direct admit medical program were different than the pre-meds. I will qualify my comments that this was back in the 1970’s, and Brown’s program was somewhat unusual (there are a lot more direct admit programs these days for one) but the kids in the program were absolutely stunning intellects. I don’t whether they were statistically stronger as a group then everyone else at the U; I don’t know what the selection criteria were at the time. But I had a close friend who was a regular old pre-med (majoring in philosophy) and her roommate was in the direct med program and you would not confuse the two. One was smart and hard working (my friend) and the other was brilliant.
She was just deep and thorough and interested in everything in a way that the typical “I wanna be a doctor” kid at Brown was not (and many of them were plenty smart and special). And the other kids in the program- really a cut above their classmates in the regular old curriculum (whether premed, engineering, or majoring in something else).
So I don’t know Hofstra’s program, and I don’t know what the selection criteria are. But I’d be willing to bet dinner that as a group they are stronger statistically, the individual kids have higher stats and more awesome types of accomplishments than what is typically Hofstra, and that a kid who at the age of 17 or 18 can credibly present as a future doctor (and not just a smart kid who is good at science and wants to be a physician) is likely a stronger student in myriad ways than the typical Hofstra kid.
These programs are so resource intensive for a college… it makes sense that they reserve the seats for kids who can demonstrate at age 18 that they are on the trajectory to being a board certified physician. And I would be shocked if Hofstra had equal access to research opportunities across the board for any kid who demonstrated an interest in life sciences, genetics, public health or healthcare. Even huge universities with massive resources and multiple affiliated hospitals and research centers need to make sure that kids who want research experience get appropriately matched.
@Data10 's survey is interesting but I’m not sure that I’d interpret the results in the exact same way. Many of the factors listed aren’t solely prestige based but are definitely influenced by prestige. The top reason listed for hiring - internships - are a great example of a factor that prestige influences. There are often better and more visible internships available to students who are attending prestigious programs; as others have pointed out, there are prestigious programs from colleges that aren’t as highly prestigious, that’s why it’s important to look at program versus college. For students at a top program, it is much easier for students to obtain the types of internships that later make for great resume boosters.
We’ve already seen this at the basic, local high school level. When DS would talk to employers about hiring him as a teen, many weren’t interested or even said they weren’t hiring. Until he mentioned he went to the magnet school and then doors seemed to open… Do we really think the number and types of internships available to students at a mid-level directional not especially known for a quality program is the same as those available to students at places like Tufts, Rice and WashU?
Brown’s a different egg, of course, filtering for breadth of curiosity, as well as academic and intellectual strengths. And their plme program takes 90 or so out of about 2500 apps. Talk about cherry picking.
@blossom Honestly, I have no idea what to take from your post. I have no idea if my daughter has what it takes to be accepted into any of these programs. It is certainly not something we are counting on. However, the majority of doctors in the United States don’t come from BS/MD programs. Sometimes, I feel like people on this site are extremely negative towards anyone who wants to attempt pre-med. Whether the pressence of a program like that at a school she is interested in will negatively impact her is something we will investigate further. But, I have to say, nothing on this website is going to convince me to try to talk her out of medicine at this point in her life.
If you look at surveys of what employers say they look for when hiring interns, they are similar to surveys of what employees say they look for when hiring full time employers – again emphasizing other criteria besides prestige of college name. For example, the first internship survey that came up in a Google search was http://www.internships.com/eyeoftheintern/uncategorized/internships-survey-2014-internship-trends/ . Employers rated the following criteria, listed from most to least important when hiring interns:
Honestly, I think some people are simply evidencing biases which overlap somewhat between intellectualism & classism. Bottom line the biggest differences you will find between elite private schools and public schools, or less-selective privates, is a greater concentration of high wealth. I think someone else posted a link upthread with detailed info about these discrepencies.
This doens’t translate into better or smarter students, but it does translate into a self-reinforcing perception among those students and their parents that their school, and their peers, are magnitudes better than the student at some-other-college with a 50% admit rate an average SAT scores 100 points lower.
But that’s all it is – a perceptual bias. For example, the idea that elite colleges somehow are keys to better internships. Because why? Apparently the assertion comes from the perception that elite colleges set up more specialized or valuable internships for their students than are available elsewhere – and I honestly don’t know where that idea comes from. I doubt there is any data to support that.
But for pre-med, that brings up another issue: becoming a doctor costs a fortune. In additon to undergrad, there is 4 years of med school with very little in the way of financial aid other than loans – and course loads that make it virtually impossible for the student to earn any money outside of class. Once students start their rotations they are working pretty much full time, year round, in some cases having to travel to distant locations to work-- all along paying their home university tuition for the privilege of being able to work long hours at various hospitals. When they graduate they are then locked into a residency for several years with a pay rate that equates to a low level white collar worker… at the same time that whatever debt they took on for 4 years of med school is coming due. So if your daughter wants to be a doctor, instead of worrying about undergrad prestige --perhaps you need to look at this - https://www.medscape.com/slideshow/residents-salary-and-debt-report-2017-6008931 --and get a sense of what she is in for.
Agree, @Data10 , just pointing out that although the employers aren’t saying they hire based on prestige, the prestige of a program directly influences most of the factors that employers state they hire based on. Internships are a good example. The internships that students at prestigious programs (not unis, individual programs) have access to will likely be of better quality with more employers even possibly doing more advanced work than the internships available to students at programs that are not well regarded. Prestige of a program does play a role because it contributes to the quality of many of the attributes that employers hire based on.
Heck, even recommendations would likely be better from professors at highly regarded programs. Great programs attract and feature well known professors whose reference carries more weight in the hiring process.
I can think of plenty of ways that the prestige of a program influences those factors that employers state they hire based on.
“For example, the idea that elite colleges somehow are keys to better internships. Because why? Apparently the assertion comes from the perception that elite colleges set up more specialized or valuable internships for their students than are available elsewhere – and I honestly don’t know where that idea comes from. I doubt there is any data to support that.”
I’m the one proposing a version of that theory. Not necessarily in regards to elite colleges, but in regards to well respected programs. My opinion is based on:
Personal experience hiring interns. At every company where I’ve done this for 20 years in accounting, finance and engineering work, we definitely seek to hire interns from the well-respected programs and rarely even interview potential interns from other programs. Companies only looking to hire a few interns generally go directly to a well regarded program to recruit the interns rather than openly advertise positions.
College tours and discussions with students at various programs. The internship opportunities described at top programs were substantially more extensive and impressive than those at less well regarded programs.
@gallentjill Yes, I think the resources and opportunities available to the kids in the BS/MD program will be different. I am not sure what they will do about classes, either. This is a question that I would ask the school directly. A school can definitely segregate the 4+4 students (or honor students) if they want to, either by guiding them to specific class sections or by outright labeling classes for BS/MD students. ( In my own D’s experience at NYU, I know that there were different sections of the same classes for studio art majors and music majors that were taught by full time faculty. Other non-majors and minors could sign up for the same class, but could not take the sections with art or music majors. Those classes had adjunct professors.)
BS/MD students need to maintain a certain (high) GPA in order to stay in the program and they need to get a certain GMAT score as well. So it is not quite an automatic admit. The med school has graduated 4 classes I believe (or will soon). It is climbing the ranks for med schools. I am certain that they are admitting students from highly ranked undergraduate schools and Hofstra certainly need the students who went to the BS/MD program to be well prepared for med school and to be able to hold their own against those from more highly ranked undergrad institutions.
I have no doubt that Hofstra can draw excellent professors for its classes for both undergrad and graduate programs. The school is located near an expensive suburban area and the Northwell hospitals are considered comparable to hospitals in the city.
But in general, schools see about half their incoming students in “pre-med” majors switch out. I would ask about that number at Hofstra for its regular students and then for its 4+4 students.
I would also look at the overall retention rate for Hofstra as a whole.
In no way would I encourage you to talk your D out of pre-med. But if your reason for going to Hofstra has to do with getting a lot of merit aid, I would just be aware that going to a school like Hofstra (outside of the BS/MD track ) might put her in a position of not getting the resources she needs or the encouragement and academic stimulation that might help her grow. And if she is going there because the lack of competition makes her feel comfortable, then she may not be prepared to challenge herself later (which med school–and working as a doctor–will require.)
You say that you want to give your D her best shot (at going to med school). Going to Hofstra might give her the best shot of going to school without debt due to merit aid, but it might not provide her the best shot for getting into med school or preparing for alternative careers.
As you know, I say this about Hofstra from personal experience. Our home is about 25 minutes away. I know many students who attended the school. I took over 24 credits there in grad school.
How employer’s perceive the quality of particular programs is certainly relevant, but this is different from prestige. As discussed elsewhere in the thread, it also can vary significantly depending on things like location and past history with grads from the college.
I doubt that employers as a whole are emphasizing the name of the professor writing/giving the recommendation, just as they are not emphasizing the name of the college. Instead I’d expect they are focusing on what the recommendation says about the student. It can be difficult to get to know professors well at HYPSM type prestigious colleges… especially in the early years as an undergrad. Many underclassmen lecture classes are large, and opportunities can be limited for undergrads assisting professors with research or as TAs. The undergrad lectures are usually full of exceptional students, which can make it difficult to really stand out to professors. I wouldn’t assume it’s going to be a reference advantage over a less competitive college or that a well known professor is your best option when choosing who to list as a reference.
With the emphasis on relevant work experiences as listed on surveys, the most important references are often in a work environment, rather than an academic one. Hiring managers are trying to find out whether the potential hire will perform well on the job, not whether they know important professors. It’s an opportunity to confirm skills and experiences listed on the resume, and better evaluate the student’s strengths and weaknesses in a work environment.
"How employer’s perceive the quality of particular programs is certainly relevant, but this is different from prestige. "
No, that’s pretty much the exact definition of prestige. A program that’s well regarded due to the quality of the offerings is prestigious to employers. And employers are the people who matter when we’re specifically discussing hiring practices.
Not so sure I’d want to base decisions on a survey based on self-reported data, either.
Self-reported data is not the most reliable data. People forget, people want to appear more likeable than they are, people lie, people aren’t very self-aware… hence self-reported data isn’t generally terribly reliable. It would be much more interesting to see actual hiring results rather than what employers want others to think they hire based on. Those same employers would also almost certainly report they are completely unbiased regarding race and gender of applicants, but we know based on surveys that use actual results - not self-reporting - that this is not the case.
Logically it makes no sense that employers for most industries give no preference to offering internships or hiring interns from less or more prestigious programs. It makes more sense that the students from a program that is perceived to be strong would have an advantage in being offered more and better internships or more likely to be hired for internships that are open to all students. And that would be part of the start of the cumulative impact of going to a more well-regarded program, whether the self-reported surveys show that or not.
San Jose State has been mentioned in this thread, so I’ll use it as an example. San Jose State has more alumni working at Silicon Valley tech companies than any other college, including more alumni at several highly desired SV companies than any other college, such as Apple. SJS has over 20,000 registered employer recruiters and numerous opportunities for quality SV internships. This suggests many Silicon Valley employers perceive that SJS has a quality CS program, which is understandable considering the quality CS courses that SJS graduates take, which are largely similar to the ones offered at top colleges. However, I’d expect few on this forum would consider the SJS CS program as prestigious, as SJS is not ranked as a national college on USNWR and does not appear anywhere on their list of top colleges in CS ranking . On this forum “prestige” generally means top USNWR ranked type colleges/programs, particularly ones at highly selective, private colleges.
@gallentjill Medical school admission is about science GPA, overall GPA, MCAT scores and medically relevant ECs. As a physician, I can tell you it really does not matter where you get your undergraduate degree. My peers are all over the map in terms of academic “prestige.” The premed courses are one year of general chemistry, one year of organic chemistry, one year of biology and one year of physics. This can be algebra based physics. A few random colleges require math and/or statistics. I majored in political science. The MCAT only tests on the basics mentioned above. I only took the basic sciences and scored very high on the MCAT.
My advice to my own daughter (who attends a rigorous LAC) was that IF she decides she wants to be a doctor to come home and take her basic sciences at either our local community college or local state university after she has graduated. There is no reason to try and compete for an A in the sciences against her current, high achieving, peers. Also, I do not think that the basic sciences vary that much from one university to another. Organic chemistry is organic chemistry wherever you take it. You either have the aptitude for it or you don’t.
Also, I would not test out or try to take advanced classes her Freshman year. There is no point. The GPA does need to be cushioned and there is no benefit to testing into harder classes. The journey to becoming a physician is a marathon and needs to be treated as such.
Hofstra with little to no debt is a good decision. It is a great decision if that is where she wants to go and she feels she can be successful there.
Finally, since I work in mental health, I also work with psychologists, social workers, marriage & family therapists and nurse practitioners. I would tell any pre-med student to always keep all the health professions on their radar. Too many students are doctor or bust. And they miss out on other rewarding and meaningful professions.
When we discuss hiring - and posting stats regarding hiring and employer’s preference is discussing hiring - then it is important what employers view as prestigious, not Aunt Jane, your neighbor or the random dude on the street. Employers do know which programs are prestigious and SJState CS is a great example of that. It’s also a great example of the risk of going to a college that has one or a few prestigious programs rather than an overall prestigious college. If you finish your intended CS degree at SJState, you’re in great shape for employment. If you discover that you would like to switch majors, then you might find the other offerings as SJState are less prestigious for employment which is the point some posters are making about Hofstra. Calculated risk.
Or you might find that the over 20,000 registered employer recruiters at SJS I mentioned were not all looking for CS grads, and many of those looking for more than just CS grads attend career fair type events on campus. Similarly you might find that the Jobvite analysis that found SJS was the college with the largest number of students hired by top companies in Silicon Valley primarily related to hires from the 90+% of SJS students who did not study CS, rather than the less than 10% who did. You might also find that the vast majority of employers actually have hiring policies similar to what they claim in surveys, and many really do emphasize things like relevant work experience to position, having desired skill set for position, and expectations of doing the job well; rather than emphasizing the prestige of individual program, prestige of college name, or prestige of professor’s names chosen for references.
“Organic chemistry is organic chemistry wherever you take it.” The content may be the same, but not the context, how you’re taught, tested, graded. That’s part of the issue with intentional weeding.
Can we just quit putting down Hofstra? Lol. Lots of med students come from lots of UG and lots of doctors come from.all sorts of med schools. And I’m not sure some here have researched the specifics of Hofstra’s 4+4, the opportunities, resources, opportunities, quality of profs, etc.
Plus, to me,the original thread sentiment was not whether Elite X is better. Rather, where else can the experiences/value/outcome be just fine, despite not being elite.You dont have to go to an uber competitive college to prepare for the challenges of med school.