I agree- I am very disappointed with the tutor -shaming posts. If people want them, let them. And if they have to pay for them because the school’s options are not adequate or a student has time constraints, who are you all to judge? Tutoring can be for enrichment, struggles, reinforcement— so many reasons for a tutor.
3 Likes
Elite hyper-competitive schools live in their own bubble. They love to tell you that they’re the best school because they have the “best” students. That’s like GM saying they make the best trucks because they only allow the most experienced drivers to operate them. It’s backwards. The reality is that all this stress and suffering is completely optional. College is stressful enough, students don’t need an artificial competition for placement just to learn job skills. Just find an affordable state school with a reasonable admissions rate and get top grades there. You’ll find there are no missed opportunities.
1 Like
I think there is something to be said for the quality of education at an elite school — in addition to the intangibles. I just don’t think kids should spend their entire high school career in pursuit of a top 20 school. If you are accepted to one (and can make it work financially) awesome. It’s a world class experience. But, there are many ways to get a great education so there is no reason to be anxious or to make yourself crazy over it.
6 Likes
I think this summarizes what you are referring to:
“So an obvious question pops up: Is this the thing for schools to focus on? It’s not as if school administrators are lacking for other options. As Crede and his colleagues point out in their meta-analysis, “Study skills and study habits, adjustment to college, and class attendance are … far more strongly related to academic performance and retention than grit, and there is sound evidence that interventions can improve students’ standing on these constructs (especially for study skills and habits)”—evidence we lack for grit. That stuff is just a lot less exciting. If you give a talk titled “Study Skills Are Important and Improvable,” there will be some empty seats.”
With this framework in mind, on the tutor issue (and I assure you that the issue is not something I get all hot and bothered about), if the tutoring is about teaching study skills, awesome. If it is about spoonfeeding content only as a short cut to an A, then in the long run a lack of study skills will catch up to a person.
3 Likes
I’ve stated it before and I’ll state it again; I don’t have an issue with tutoring in these circumstances that you mention:
- School’s options not adequate
- Student has time constraitnts
- Student has struggles
- Student needs reinforcement
My issue is with the tutoring as enrichment at elite institutions. Are people saying that HYP, etc, do not offer challenging enough coursework for their students and that their students need additional enrichment? Or is it a way of using financial resources to gain an edge on the rest of the population at the university?
And should it not be abundantly clear, people are welcome to spend their money however they see fit, even if others disagree with how that money is spent. Some people value expensive cars, or houses, or education, or self-care, or therapists, or travel, etc. No matter what one spends money on (or doesn’t spend money on), there are going to be people who would use the money differently. I’m just one who thinks that spending money on a tutor at an elite institution of higher education for “enrichment” or advancement creates an uneven playing field, and thus am not overly fond of it.
1 Like
If outside tutoring is the best way for a student to learn, I wouldn’t be against it, but I doubt that’s the case at an elite college. IMO, if his college can’t provide what he needs academically, he didn’t pick the right college or the right courses if he has to go outside for supplemental help.
3 Likes
American is a culture that actively promotes teamwork. I know from experience with other cultures. There is so much collaborative work in K-12 and beyond comparing with foreign systems. This is generally a good think. I am not against teamwork. I am against the expectation that the material should be spoonfed to minimize the student intellectual effort. The brain is like a muscle – you need to exercise it to develop problem solving ability.
There were students at our HS who would go straight from class to tutoring where they would spend additional 3-4 hours with a turor who would hold their hand at every turn when doing their hw. These students never even attempted to do the hw on their own. Even if they got the “A”, they would forget the material the next day because they never actively worked to understand it.
The only time tutoring makes sense is when the teacher is useless in the classroom. This is sadly often the case. Otherwise, you should be able to manage using the school resources (TA sessions, office hours, study groups) or you are not in the right college, class or major.
6 Likes
But what if the student wants to learn something extra? Tennis ‘tutor’ (private lessons) when there are group lessons? Private music lessons when the student is already in orchestra? SAT prep course when they should be learning all that junk in hs? (or LSAT prep, or MCAT prep)
Is it a way to get an A? Sure. Will that be an advantage? Sure. Do wealthier students have it easier at college in all kinds of ways? Yes. They may not have to work a part time job or they may have a car to get to more late night study sessions or even evening classes (I had to bum a ride from a friend to take a night class when I lived off campus and it was unsafe to walk).
Wealthy people HAVE advantages in life. That doesn’t change if they go to City College or to Penn.
4 Likes
I agree. I didn’t mean to imply that there wasn’t a good reason that a student might want to take Linear Algebra in HS only that I would question why?. If it’s that they are good at math and have been accelerated and feel they are prepared to go beyond what is typically accelerated HS curriculums then it makes sense. If on the other hand it’s to attempt to make themselves look better on an application and they are struggling then I question the motive. It’s personal choice regardless. I just think that given the name of this thread it’s often the parents and students who create the environment and the perception that “admissions” has gone wrong more than the universities themselves. They are simply reacting to an abundance of students who are choosing to apply.
Wealthy people use their advantages from birth onwards, in so many unimaginable and sometimes questionable ways, I don’t see why doing so in college is concerning.
2 Likes
On the question of tutoring (and education in general), I am firmly in the camp of “you reap what you sow” over the long run. Everyone is wired differently, so some subjects are intuitively easier for some and difficult for others. Some teachers are lousy, some just don’t communicate well or don’t communicate well with certain students. Those are all situations where the student needs to get help, whether it is office hours with the teacher/prof/TA, study group or private tutor, whatever is most effective in getting them over some hump to a level of necessary proficiency and comprehension. I was a paid TA in law school for a 1L class my second and third years. The professor I TA’d for was brilliant and for me was a very effective teacher. But I could see how some students might not follow him. That was my job in my review sessions, rehashing concepts step by step in language more familiar to the students.
On the other hand, there are certainly students who use tutors, especially private ones, to show them shortcuts, and in some cases almost (or in fact do) do the work for the student. Whatever they learn is superficial, and maybe they get away with it short term, but sooner or later it catches up to them; e.g. a test that is not a rehash of prior problem sets, but requiring application of concepts.
2 Likes
“Why do you think Lowell’s placements would be so different? Not presuming you know but your username suggests CA experience.”
Having lived in NJ and now in the bay area, the competition is a lot tougher out here, especially for Asians, and Asian males in stem could be the toughest demographic in the country to gain admission. Even accounting for the population difference, there are a lot more schools, public and private, like Lowell in the bay area and CA in general than schools like Bergen Academy in NJ. Now the demographics are also different, these schools are 70-80% Asian, 10-15% white and 5-10% Hispanic. This is based on assuming that applicants from the same region, high school and race compete with each other, of course.
4 Likes
I don’t feel the thread here is trying to paint it as a sin. It really depends on the situation. Besides, everyone has different learning needs.
The kind of negative scenario I have seen are the parents who think “cramming” the knowledge will help their children to get ahead or earn perfect grades when not every child has ability to absorb the material in such a way. For those who were forced to “pursue excellence” it becomes tremendous pressure to them when that’s not the outcome. Their parents seem to equate “tutoring = get perfect grades = better GPA = better prospect”. When the test outcome doesn’t match parent’s expectation, the children get even more cramming pressure.
Someone recommended the documentary movie called “Try Harder!” I watched it. One of the student said in the end of the movie: “I could have gotten into the same place(college) without doing these much anyway…”. It reminds me of some of these children, they could have enjoyed their childhood a little more if they have time to explore themselves instead of bearing “these extra pressure or workload” to land them in the same outcome…
There are children simply passionate about the subject, with or without tutor, they thrive.
2 Likes
This ^.
4 Likes
I have always found this to be a curious thing myself. I know so many people who don’t seem to need an accountant who nonetheless just fill the shoebox with all the “Tax Information Enclosed” mail they get and “give it to our accountant.” This includes family members who really don’t have a lot of money.
Given what I do for a living, I am a little more familiar with the IRC than the average person, but having said that I don’t think it’s a huge advantage … 99% of that knowledge is irrelevant to my personal return. Maybe I’m cheap, but I know the sources of my income, I know how it’s all taxed, and even with a few partnership interests and a little complexity beyond that I can’t see hiring someone to do it for me. It seems like a waste of money for something I can take care of by staying on top of things and spending an hour or so before the deadline.
I know A LOT of people who use an accountant for their return. Sometimes I wonder if I’m missing out on a lot of clever deductions, but I don’t think so.
Someone may have covered this, but one source of this pressure I’ve seen, and it gets discussed a lot on CC, is the desire to get college credits for courses taken in HS. A lot of parents are keen on the idea of their kid getting in and out of some place in 3. something years or whatever it can be. We know a lot of people who push their kids for that very reason: take it now and get credit and graduate faster.
I can’t judge that motivation too harshly because it is outside of my personal experience. We were able to be full pay and enjoyed the luxury of sending our kids where they wanted to go and taking in the full experience. There was no pressure to graduate early; and in fact if it had come up, I probably would have encouraged them to hang around for 4 years because IMO the UG experience is a unique one, and once it’s done it’s done and the rest of your education is going to feel different. I don’t think I communicated to them that I expected them to graduate in 4 years (though each one did). Not everyone is in that position, but there you have it.
That’s true. The score on the AP test is actually more important than the grade in that instance, however, there is often a direct correlation. In the example given above, Linear Algebra, there would be no credit offered. It would simply be either a strong interest or the possible aesthetics. Universities won’t give credit for it nor will they require it for admission.
1 Like
As the OP for this thread, the ups and downs of getting a college tutor is not exactly what I was envisioning when I first posted this! 
8 Likes
Yeah, I can’t remember how it worked the last time. My kid who attended Wesleyan was the one completed the whole diploma and did very well on the IB tests. It seemed to us that limits and requirements on credit varied by school and the selective private schools were more stingy than other schools. I have a cynical view as to why that may be. 
My vague recollection is consistent with what you’re saying … some combination of the class being “HL” designated, grade in the course and/or score on the IB exam.
Anyway, for all the work it takes to do an IB diploma, I would not base the decision on getting college credit … at least not at a selective private. Admissions boost and excellent preparation for college would be the reasons I’d do it.
1 Like
DS took several courses in high school that he wished he could have gotten credit for if he were able to test out of the course. His view is that if he can take the final and get a 90 or above then why should he repeat the course…and I agree.
Luckily we are able to pay for 4+ years of college so the motivation is not trying to cut down on the time to get a degree. Instead, he would prefer not sitting through a class where he knows the material already. He is a freshman at GT and has taken a few classes that were not very interesting as he knew the info already.
1 Like