To me, the sign of a truly intelligent person is one who strives to learn more, to learn from others with perhaps greater experience or knowledge of a subject, to want a greater understanding if a subject, or to learn ways to approaches it differently or more efficiently. Reaching out for additional “help” , paid or not, is not a sign of weakness, its a sign of strength. JMO.
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I do not think that it has changed as much as it may seem. Although there are certain expectations expected among students as they apply to college, given that almost everyone nowadays goes to college, I still think that the general process is similar. College may seem more “in your face” than it used to be, given that it is more popular.
My S did not apply to Waterloo so don’t have first hand experience with the process. It is possible that, with the increased competition, they now have to take into account math competitions, internships, etc to select their candidates. I think the ones that count are strictly related to your major. Founding a non-profit in Honduras wouldn’t count. Also, I don’t think they have legacy and development prospects hooks.
My S McGill application was very simple and predictable. No essays. It is possible that there is a process for high caliber recruited athletes.
True. There are super young human. Your kid happens to be one of those. Can do all sorts of things and enjoy competitions (with or without tutors). Pretty much the top students I know from friends’ family or my area are like that. (with or without tutors). Some of them are already graduated from HYPSM.
And they continue to be competitive even at work place. 
However, super human is not the majority.
Meanwhile, tutoring on every subject imo is not necessary, sure for people who want to excel at certain subject, I don’t think that’s a big deal. Particularly it is request from your own kid… it is same as asking for participating any activity out of their desires. The pitiful thing from my observation is, these little preteen are pretty much “scheduled” by their families.
Exactly. Some of the parents I spoke to seem to have this tremendous anxiety as well. Worried that their children will be behind if they don’t something… At least in my child’s school, that is the case, the tutoring is not for the sake of learning but for the sake of “getting perfect grades”. They are just middle school kids.
Seeing someone mentioning the tutoring may continue to college just… I have mixed and complicated feelings :<
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Different people learn in different ways. My guy learns best when he works through the problems/assignments himself first. Usually, this and TA support/peer discussions is sufficient to get the concepts.
I don’t support tutoring when this intellectual effort is replaced by the expectation that somebody will be there to show right away how to do the difficult stuff. Then the student never develops grit and intellectual tenacity.
In general, classes have prerequisites and sometimes placing exams. If you are at the right level class, you will be able to do the work without external tutoring provided that you have the time to wrap your head around the material
ETA: it may happen that the prof/TA are not good. Happened in son’s HS but not in college so far. Then, I fully sympathize and can see seeking outside tutoring as an option.
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I’m not surprised that people use academic supports, at any university, whether Harvard or Directional State University. What I’m surprised at is that people are going beyond the university-offered supports, and the professor/TA’s office hours, and peer study groups, etc., and hiring private tutors.
I 100% agree with this. These are all resources that are available to everyone at universities and should be utilized. Maybe I’m too frugal, but when universities are offering so many services, I’d have a hard time spending extra money for something that is already offered. But if people are paying for equivalent services that the universities provide so they can have convenient scheduling, etc, then that’s totally up to them.
This is where I am more shocked. Students are paying others to try and get an advantage. If they want to read ahead and be a little in advance of the syllabus, why do they need the tutor? Or is it because they’re trying to appear as though they already know everything at the class when the materially is initially introduced so they can impress the professor to get better recs/research opportunities, etc? To me this is more of an attempt to try and buy opportunities than to earn them. Why can’t a student read ahead on the syllabus and go to the professor to discuss it at office hours prior to the class if there are any questions? But it’s the attempt to purchase an advantage that is unnerving.
Yes, there are. There are people who read a syllabus ahead of time. People who come in early, work late, and work on the weekend. People who are studying on the side to learn new software or methodologies to improve themselves at work. These people will definitely get ahead in life.
But, once the pay-for-tutoring-to-get-an-advantage students are no longer in school, what then? Are they going to be paying people to let them know what kinds of diseases to study for the next week? Or what kind of legal cases they should start studying on? At some point, an advantage will not be able to be purchased. And I am not saying collaboration with colleagues doesn’t happen professionally. But colleague collaboration = peer study groups, it does not equate to paying a tutor to help someone get ahead in the class.
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Why is it such a sin to pay for a tutor? I do not see the problem if someone wants to do that and I do not think it means they will never be able to be a success in their job.
Perhaps the kids feel the tutors they pay for are better? Like the atmosphere better…I am not sure but it is their money and if they want to spend it on studies to get ahead, more power to them!!
I do believe that part of the problem in schools is that there are kids that like academics, do well and are very advanced…and they are able to relatively easily be able to do many ECs…others try to do the same and do not have the same ability and these kids struggle and have lots of issues. These kids that struggled to keep up in HS then also struggle in college. With the US system the kids that did not struggle sometimes do not get challenged in college and the kids that struggled get in over their heads in college.
But I would assume that the kids who are actually paying for private tutors rather than using the free services are the wealthy ones who generally went to good schools and were well prepared for college?
I don’t begrudge anyone hiring tutors, even to get an edge. What surprises me is the tutor culture that seems to exist- the one on one teaching for multiple subjects, music, sports coaching and personal training, test prep, college counseling, essay-writing, therapy, life coaching, etc.
None of those things are inherently problematic, but if done in excess, then what does the student learn about their inherent abilities? How much time does it take out of their already busy lives? Does it raise the bar on the level of performance required for everyone and just feed the competition? And then isn’t it just another way that money causes an uneven playing field if the expected bar actually requires paid outside tutoring? Doesn’t it mask the problems the public schools are having delivering education if people go outside the school for their education but don’t fess up to it?
To me, it just underscores that the answer to “where we got wrong” is k-12. Tutors are great - I have tutored, my mom was a tutor, no problem with tutoring. Until it becomes a necessity for competing or becomes counterproductive. Then we should be questioning why a necessity isn’t available from the school.
Also (I don’t mean to offend anyone), there’s a difference between a kid with grit working hard, accessing any resources that they can find v a kid preemptively relying on tutors to avoid a struggle. The former will be prepared for adulting, the latter not so much.
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I think you’ve raised some great point.
Sadly, I think the idea of needing a tutor for everything comes from societal expectations. Kids can’t even get a B in AP Linear Algebra in HS without risking GPA and chances at college. We’ve designed a system in which failure is not possible at any age. The bar keeps lifting and that is creating a divide between kids with access to great schools and tutors and those whose schools can’t even meet basic parameters. In some economic groups, from the ago of 2-3, tiny kids are trying out for programs or being coached into the next level ( music, theater, sports, etc). They must be bewildered why everything is a contest or being the best in everything is so important.
The idea of someone developing depth and expertise through rigorous try and fail methods is lost. Instead, we have a bunch of kids attached to perfection and lauded for it. This seeps into their idea of who they are and what matters. And frankly, that’s sad.
I’m certainly in favor of a tutor for added help here and there or for a kid who is struggling. But I don’t believe in tutoring when normal learning should still be taking place.
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I’m not exactly sure how this conversation moved to tutoring and ‘extra help’. It might even be worth splitting this part of the conversation off into its own thread.
However, I am surprised by the number of people who really seem to negatively perceive and judge the very idea of getting help and whether people who preemptively get help can ever be successful ‘solo’*. And why paying someone for their help and expertise is somehow judged even more harshly.
I think there are very few people who are good at everything. And knowing what one is good at and what on needs help with seems to me a very strong sign if intelligence, drive and confidence - all of which I think is needed to be successful. There also seems to be a bit of ‘concern trolling’ with worrying about those who look for help preemptively/paying for help not being able to hack it in the real world. Not the result I have ever seen in my decades in the real world.
The college professor, peer tutors, writing centers…all the people in those positions are being paid (by the university) to provide instruction, advice and expertise. Why is help paid for by the student (or parent) suddenly anathema?
Why are some people upset that some students may require additional help? And why do the student’s excellent grades/future success seem to be the sticking point? It seems like if these students were doing poorly, no one would think twice about the fact these students were getting and paying for extra help? It seems like what is bothering certain people is the idea of students getting extra help (that the student rather than the university paid for) and doing very very well.
The person who pays a physical trainer to help them get in shape probably has a better chance of getting in shape without hurting themselves or wasting their time. The person who pays a personal nutritionist probably has an easier time hitting their goal weight than the person trying to get to a goal weight solo. Why paying for someone’s help and expertise raises the hackles of some is fascinating to me.
Why are some of us on this board committed so fiercely to the idea that there has to be a struggle for resources to prove ‘grit’. Doing the work, mastering class material - if getting help preemptively (and paying for it from personal resources) is the system that works for someone, why are other people bothered by that?
*American culture really has what I consider to be an unhealthy attachment to the idea that success is worth inherently more if it comes by working solo, or alone. Which quite frankly, in my opinion, is utter hogwash. No man is an island…and no person is actually building anything by ‘themselves’. Often times what we perceive to be solo achievement is, in fact, achievement fundamentally reliant upon countless invisible helpers, resources, experts, and experience. And while we might not see all of that input and assistance doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.
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I would suspect that a student who has a tutor is not avoiding a struggle. Either they are struggling with a subject, are taking a subject they shouldn’t be taking, or they have a reason that they need someone to help them learn beyond what a teacher is capable of doing in a classroom setting. I question the need to push students to succeed in courses beyond what they are capable of simply to advance a college application. You go to university to learn. Someone who is a junior in HS should not be expected to be experts on what are essentially college level courses. Some can master it. Many do not. I would carefully determine if the student is simply being pushed beyond what they are cognitively ready to learn. Not every bright kid is ready for the most advanced classes.
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I would question why a student needs to be taking Linear Algebra in HS? That’s second year college engineering prep material. Isn’t that what they’ll be going to college to learn? That B won’t look so bad there.
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Given the mentions of ‘grit’, I think it’s worth noting that a number of scholars have raised concerns with the idea that ‘grit’ is actually a real thing, and that even if it is whether it’s a useful concept for the practice of education. (See, for example, Credé et al’s meta-analysis of research on the topic a few years ago.)
And even if all these other scholars are wrong, Angela Duckworth herself (the person who literally wrote the book on the topic) has frequently and publicly stated that she isn’t happy that the concept is being misused in pop culture by being connected to grades.
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I hate to sound like the uber elitist many of you know I am… but honestly, this “paying for tutors” business is really a non-problem of the tippy top. Every day, I’m sure we all have encounters with people who we wish could get some tutoring- the guy at Home Depot who couldn’t let me order carpet because the system was down and therefore he couldn’t tell me what it cost ($10 a square foot and I need 30 square feet, our sales tax is 6%, installation is free, and he’s the manager of the flooring department, really?) and the tech at my pharmacy who struggled to ring up a bottle of vitamins because the coupon was good for 100 tablets or more and the bottle I chose was 200 tablets so I needed to get the smaller bottle to use the coupon… you get my drift. Every. Single. Day. Working adults who can’t do 5th grade math. Grownups who can’t read at an 8th grade level.
I have a friend who moonlights at a tax prep place and she gets so depressed that people of such modest means are spending actual cash dollars to have someone else fill out a few forms for them. They literally are afraid to do basic addition and then subtraction.
So a kid at Penn wants a tutor to be able to do graduate level work as an undergrad- who cares. A kid in HS wants a tutor to “ace” linear algebra-- yawn. They will soon find out that in the real world, being 21 with a BA or 23 with a BA or 25 in grad school or whatever race they think they are running- it’s all the same. Being “accelerated” once you are a grownup is pretty meaningless unless you are a world class gymnast whose body might give out before you’ve qualified for whatever trophy you think you want.
Next time you’re in a restaurant, watch the manager’s head explode when you ask him/her to subtract the $10 appetizer which never arrived. And the fad of ordering via the IPad only makes it worse, because someone needs to override the original check, then subtract, then issue a new check. And we’re worried about a kid getting tutored? Good god.
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I don’t have an issue with tutors or people needing tutoring for the purpose of learning and understanding a subject. I have an issue with kids being pushed beyond what they are capable of to be able to show they mastered a subject for the purpose of admission to a more elite university. I do agree that it is a problem that only a small fraction of people have. But I think it can be an example of where admissions has “gone wrong”. We are asking students to apply as students we think the colleges want vs. the students they are. No wonder there is anxiety.
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I was the dumb math kid in school. No amount of tutoring was going to get me to linear algebra. If parents are deluded enough to think that tutoring is going to propel their kid into areas where the kid clearly doesn’t belong/isn’t ready for/can’t compete, then I feel sorry for the kid- but then, there are so many kids I feel sorry for these days.
And for the record, there is record anxiety in the armed forces among kids who did not attend college. And there is anxiety in immigration detention centers, and anxiety in housing projects, and anxiety in refugee camps. College-going kids whose parents hire them tutors do not have a monopoly on anxiety among 18 -22 year olds…
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But who is pushing them? Kids don’t need to attend a top 20 school to be successful and most kids who are good enough to be a serious candidate at a top 20 are going to do really well regardless of where they land. There is no sense turning yourself inside out to be the student that you think they will want because most of the time that isn’t going to work anyway. Great kids with stellar credentials are rejected all the time. There is no road map that will assure success (unless you are hooked which is a different matter altogether).
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What likely happened is that the student was accelerated into taking algebra by 7th grade, either due to showing real math talent or due to pushy parents. Once that die is cast, linear algebra in HS is pretty much normal. The issue is that even someone naturally talented for algebra in 7th grade is no guarantee they will perform well in linear algebra by 12th grade.
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