Which Applicant, As An Admit Officer, Would You Accept?

College Confidential Community
1

<p>Hi! I know there is a thread about this, but I thought I’d add another situation : </p>

<p>You are the admissions officer to HYP, who would YOU ACCEPT?</p>

<p>BOTH GO TO SAME SCHOOL IN CALIFORNIA</p>

<p>Applicant 1 : </p>

<ul>
<li>3.8 GPA UW </li>
<li> SAT 1 : 2310</li>
<li>SAT 2 : 760 Math 2 , 710 Chem </li>
</ul>

<p>Course Load : (in APs 9-12)
AP Micro
AP Macro
AP Chem
AP Art History
AP English Lang
AP Bio
AP US Gov
AP Comp Sci
AP Studio Art
AP Calc AB
AP Calc BC</p>

<p>In top 10% of class </p>

<p>Essays = Good </p>

<p>Recs = Good </p>

<p>ECs : </p>

<p>Model UN Co-President
Student Association President and Founder
Outside charity group President and Founder
Varsity Track & Field
JV Tennis
Science Olympiad
Service club member - must have 100+ hours each year
Executive Board of admissions group for school
Outside gifted group member - must have 3.8+ GPA each year
Peer tutor
Blog of science
National Merit Finalist </p>

<p>Applicant 2 : </p>

<ul>
<li>3.99 GPA UW </li>
<li>SAT 1 : 2400 </li>
<li>SAT 2 : 800 Math 2 , 800 Chem </li>
</ul>

<p>Course Load : (in APs 9-12)
AP Chem
AP Micro
AP Macro
AP Bio
AP English Lang
AP Physics C
AP Calc BC
AP US Gov </p>

<p>Is valedictorian </p>

<p>Essays = Good </p>

<p>Recs = Good </p>

<p>ECs : </p>

<p>Editor-in-chief of school newspaper
LD Debate Co-Captain
Senior Editor of tech blog/website
Fencing
Photography website of his
Student Council in 9th Grade
Tennis once a month for one hour
National Merit Finalist </p>

<p>Thanks for the input! :)</p>

2

<p>Although both essays may be “good,” one of them – or both of them, or neither – is going to make an Admissions Director sit up and take notice. The same with the teacher recommendations. (That would be especially true if the same teacher wrote both recs – one of them is going to be more glowing than the other. Ditto if 4 different teachers wrote the recs for the 2 students. While all the recs might be “good” they will never be the same, or say the same things. ) So, my response to your thread is going to be the same as my response to the other thread: “It all comes down the “feeling” an Admissions Director gets after reading an applicant’s recommendations and essays.” </p>

<p>Here’s a real-world example: My son and daughter attended a very large specialized Math and Science high school; the graduating class is about 900 students. In any given year, about 150 students apply to Harvard, and Harvard has accepted anywhere from 8 to 24 students each year. And they don’t just pick the tippy-top students, or the students with the best SAT scores, or the most AP’s or the most interesting Ec’s. Some years the valedictorian with a 98 average and a 2400 SAT was passed over in favor of students with 94, 95, 96, 97 averages with 2200 SAT’s. It really does come down to the “warm and fuzzy” feeling an Admissions Director gets after reading your essays and teacher recommendations and compares them to all other applicants.</p>

<p>William Fitzsimmons has said as much when asked about recommendations:</p>

<p>

</p>

3

<p>Gibby is perfectly right: The information given only establishes that – like tens of thousands of other HYP applicants – these two students are well qualified, legitimate candidates. Nothing in this laundry list really helps distinguish between them. (Except maybe Student 1’s SAT II scores, which are maybe low enough to raise some questions, including why did Student 1 choose to take the Chem SAT II? From the activities and classes, it looks like this is probably an affluent community where test-taking is not a general problem.) What will determine whether either, neither, or both of them are admitted will be the actual quality of their essays and recommendations, and how each of them fits into the prospective class. What isn’t likely to make a huge difference is head-to-head comparison, at least on the basis of this kind of information.</p>

<p>I would have some questions, though, if I were an admissions officer: Why did Student 1 take two AP calculus courses? Is that common in their school? Why does neither seem to have an AP language course? Have they both taken four years of foreign language? How about history? (In real life, I have never seen a student with 11 APs, none of which is a language or any type of history.) How legit are the clubs Student 1 “founded”? At this school, is being editor-in-chief of the newspaper a big deal and a lot of work, or sort of an honorific? </p>

4

<p>Just a hint for you: No one should ever write: “Tennis once a month for one hour” </p>

5

<p>I like games. I’m going to pretend we have to pick one of them, and we can’t be given any information other than what’s in the post. So, which? I think I would take the first one, who, from the ECs, seems to have broader interests. I’d certainly ding the second student for including lame ECs (tennis for one hour a week, student council in 9th grade). Of course, if I only had grades and scores, I’d take the second applicant.</p>

6

<p>I dunno, Hunt. I have the feeling that Applicant 1 prepared Applicant 2’s list. Applicant 2 would not include occasional tennis as an EC on his or her application. </p>

<p>Playing your game, I think you are making the PC inference from these lists, but I am not sure you have looked hard enough to reach that conclusion. Frankly I get a bad sense from Applicant 1’s list: too many things, too much joinerism, and I really distrust multiple “founders,” especially if the student seems really busy otherwise. (Of course, I would have tons of respect if I had evidence that the founded organizations involved other people as well, and actually accomplished things.)</p>

<p>With the ECs, I think co-captain or whatever of Model UN and Debate sort of cancel each other out (and either could be significant and respectable or not, depending on the school). Editor-in-chief of the school newspaper is usually a big deal, and a lot of actual work, with actual other people, as well as an indication of respect from peers, so that gives me a good feeling about Applicant 2. Applicant 1 is a minor jock, which I respect, too, but exclusively in individual sports, so it doesn’t give me any indication of real engagement with other people. Applicant 2 has fencing, and that has some of the same issues. Also, it could be complete BS or Applicant 2 could be nationally ranked and spending 30 hours/week on it – you can’t tell at all from this list. Applicant 1 took AP Studio Art and AP Art History, but Applicant 2 seems actually to do art, which I could look at, so points to Applicant 2 on that.</p>

<p>A 710 on the Chemistry SAT II is 59th percentile. That doesn’t scream HYP to me. I don’t mind it if Applicant 1 isn’t a science person, but that’s not how Applicant 1 is presenting him- or herself. Applicant 1 would have had to do pretty well in Science Olympiad and all those STEM APs for me to stop wondering why a 710 in Chem (and a 760 in Math II, which isn’t that much better) was the best Applicant 1 could submit.</p>

<p>Applicant 2 seems more real to me – a smart kid with a couple of major ECs and some poetry in the soul, too. He or she is valedictorian without stuffing a schedule with minor APs. Applicant 1 could be a great kid and leader, or could be an empty fake – I would need a bunch more evidence to form an opinion. If I were limited to what I saw here, and didn’t have the option to choose “neither,” I would go with Applicant 2 as the safer choice, less likely to be a fraud.</p>

7

<p>To clarify things : </p>

<ol>
<li>Applicant 1 has leadership in which they lead a group of students in each of the above clubs </li>
<li>Applicant 2 will be starting fencing possibly as a 10th Grader but is not doing it yet</li>
</ol>

8

<ol>
<li>Applicant 2 might or might not put tennis on their app but said that if they do they will say it is 2 hours a week which is false of course </li>
<li>Applicant 2 is unweighted valedictorian and Applicant 1 is weighted valedictorian </li>
</ol>

9

<p>Ivyleague2020: Since you posted this on the Harvard forum, I’ll play along too. What is your school’s track record with Harvard? About how many students apply every year and how many students does Harvard accept each year?</p>

10

<p>I’m not sure how many apply but I know 1-6 are accepted every year.</p>

11

<p>“Applicant 2 might or might not put tennis on their app but said that if they do they will say it is 2 hours a week which is false of course”</p>

<p>And this is even more pathetic… IL2020: if this is a friend, tell him/her how utterly stupid this is. If not, let it go </p>

12

<p>@Ivyleague2020: Does Harvard always take the valedictorian at your school? If so, then the Val might be a clear admit . . . unless they put down something stupid like playing tennis once a month for an hour or two. </p>

<p>FWIW: Colleges understand that students taking a rigorous course schedule must spend 3 to 4 hours a night on homework. That leaves about 20 hours a week to devote to extracurricular activities. When you complete your EC list, college’s ask you to list your EC’s in order of importance to you – and they prefer students who have a passion for an activity and spend 3-6 hours each week on several activities, rather than students who have a laundry list of activities that they spend one or two hours a week on. Please pass this advice on to your tennis playing valedictorian (or not): Spend a week adding up the time you spend in the bathroom, including showering and using the toilet. I guarantee it adds up to more than one hour a week. Bottom line: you should not list an EC that takes up less time than using the bathroom, or you will come across as a complete idiot!</p>

13

<p>So these are fantasy projections of what may happen to two 9th graders in the future? Give me a break! No wonder Applicant 1 looks fake. Things aren’t going to play out like that.</p>

<p>Also, there’s a big difference between “top 10%” and “weighted valedictorian.” At my kids’ school, for example, Harvard regularly takes a person or two. It’s not always the valedictorian (although it’s the valedictorian more than it is any other particular class rank), but there seems to be a cutoff around the top 10 students (roughly top 2%). </p>

14

<p>Yes these are 10th Graders who are currently doing these things, and I’m assuming the things like valedictorian etc even though they are true so far. The top 10% is about the top 10 kids in the class</p>

<p>@gibby: the HYP schools take the most compelling students in the class who is smart and seems to have some interesting hook and EC that makes them stand out. The two who got in last year , one of them is a male concert singer and musician and the other is a major science awards winer invited to attend the Nobel Prize ceremony in Sweden. </p>

<p>This year one who is accepted EA is super smart and does a cool internship and seems to be great at every AP Science class. :slight_smile: </p>

<p>I hope to continue this pattern :slight_smile: </p>

15

<p>Was recently part of a similar exercise, not hypothetical. Agree with the comments that no laundry list created in typical CC fashion is sufficient. If the sup asks, potential major matters and the prep for that, including outside experiences - not “founded” a charity. The harder the admit chances, the more a higher level of thinking and presentation matters. Don’t have time for much comment now-- but what post 1 presents is the typical way 9th graders think admissions works. You don’t get into a top college for being a super-duper high school student, BMOC, he with the most APs, who thinks teachers love him. You attract adcoms’ attention by showing how relevant you are to that college’s freshman class. </p>

16

<p>Do you have access to your high school’s Naviance data yet? You will see that the most likely answer is that both applicants get rejected. You will also see that some students will be accepted with grades or scores lower than either of these two applicants. The whole file matters, and with plenty of time left until these applicants are actually seniors, both should focus on what matters to them, not to a hypothetical admissions officer two years from now.</p>

17

<p>No I don’t yet but I will next year</p>

18

<p>Applicant 2 probably has a better chance than Applicant 1, because Applicant 1’s GPA, rank, and subject test scores might be seen as marginal at this level of selectivity, but still may not have a very good chance of admission. Neither has an award or extracurricular achievement that would stand out among the HYP(SM) applicant pool.</p>

19

<p>This analysis makes sense. So basically awards help make an applicant stand out? </p>

<p>Would ECs with like internships help as well?</p>

20

<p>Awards or achievements would have to be unusual ones. School or local level awards or achievements, or awards or achievements that can be found among high school students everywhere, probably mean little at this level of selectivity. Awards or achievements for which there would be only a few of in the state or nation (due to the high level of the achievement more so than the rarity of the activity) may be much more valuable in this context (of course, assuming that the student has top end academic achievement and test scores as well).</p>