@Waiting2exhale - I think it’s very, very school dependent. I have a kid in a very STEM focused program. They were very “free” with their acceptance of scores to fulfill gen ed requirements.
@warblersrule : “And no matter the college, foreign language classes are small, meaning you can’t hide. It also means you learn effectively - in two years you cover more than HS in 5 years…and being able to attend college in another country their junior year.”
My daughter has been studying a new (modern) language in college and there are a whopping four kids in her class. Unbelievable. In order for the next (higher) level to be taught, the students and professor must agree to schedule by consensus or it becomes infeasible to hold the class.
I’ve had the same experience. I’ve had friends that have been in a class with 2 students.
Ditto. Although in my case, the class will be offered, but the department’s philosophy is to have students/instructor agree on the schedule to allow as many students to take it as possible.
Also, define fluency. Is it being able to survive by speaking in basics or being at a conversational level for abstract concepts such as politics and theology? Is it just speaking? Reading? Writing? All 3? Students typically are not on the same level across all areas. Some languages are also easier to learn than others, so getting to a higher level of proficiency doesn’t take as much time.
Agree about scheduling the classes. Many foreign language classes only have 1 section offered. It can make creating a workable schedule difficult.
One of the higher education reforms of the 1960’s was that most colleges dropped the requirement that all students, at least B.A. students, take four semesters of language courses in college. Foreign language study was deemed to be irrelevant. The 1960’s was the decade when everything had to be “relevant”.
It’s going to depend on the school and really depends on your student’s aptitude. My D is at a school that is not that strong in her chosen language, though a major is offered in the language. But she made it work with help of the profs and outside studying. She did a study abroad program with students from some of the schools reputed to be tops in foreign language education and discovered that she was way ahead of them in all areas. She is not yet fluent but has achieved high level proficiency in a tough language after 1.5 years through 3 intensive programs (1 domestic, 2 abroad) and a year of college foreign language. So based on my experience, it’s going to depend on the kid and there is more value in an immersive program than choosing any college for its foreign language program.
@itsgettingreal17: “So based on my experience, it’s going to depend on the kid and there is more value in an immersive program than choosing any college for its foreign language program.”
Interesting; informative.
One more kid to get out of the door and this thread has given so much to reference and take note of. While he self-studies Russian, and formally takes in-school Chinese, we are looking at an immersion program for next summer and Russian/Slavic language and studies when he’s off to college.
i know a woman who took an intensive German class at a community college and went from no German to reading Thomas Mann in the original – over the course of one summer. Of course, she was very ambitious, had a talent for languages, and worked her butt off, making German a priority a good 8-10 hours per day.
So, yes, it depends a great deal on the individual, and on the language. Personally – knowing a lot of people in this field – I think the vast majority of good universities (and that includes most larger state universities/flagships) will have programs in which the serious student can become fluent in a language. How fast depends in part on the language and what kind of a program the student takes. Intensive courses plus study abroad will obviously be the most successful.
Fwiw, the foreign service has expectations on how long it will take an employee (who already has demonstrated fluency/high proficiency in one or more foreign languages ) to acquire a new one in a tutorial set-up that is that employee’s full time job. Spanish, for example, is on the low end whereas Arabic assumes something like 15 months. These are, of course, employees who were hired in part based on the foreign language facility/ability. They don’t have to sound like a native, but they would have to be able to conduct a visa interview or hold a press conference in the foreign language, so be pretty fluent. Immersion and ability to practice are the key, though.
In a college setting, the study abroad piece is key. Having a great base from classroom work really can make that time more productive but there is no substitute for immersion!
Proficiency and “proficiency to an intermediate level” are not fluency.
A study abroad or immersion doesn’t yield fluency. It advances you. Assuming, that is, that you dont just hang with friends, speaking English.
This isn’t about how hard classes are or whether college classes are faster paced. (Not always.) It’s got more to do with one’s motivation and facility for languages.
Fluent generally means you could be dropped into any situation and manage well. Speak, read, write. That’s a lot more than reading a book in class. Or talking to people on a “get by” level. There are vocab counts. Around 10k is pretty darned good. 20k is a much higher level.
^ For students that are good with languages, a year study abroad usually does result in fluency in most languages. My D has been abroad for 6 months. We don’t say she’s fluent because while she can converse on most topics (current events, religion, politics, etc etc), her vocabulary is still not at the 10k mark that is generally required to be considered fluent. 6 more months and she would be. She should be there before graduation without further study abroad. But she’s good with languages. Many who have studied longer than she has at strong foreign language schools are progressing much slower.
I lived in Germany for two years, can communicate broadly in German, but wouldn’t call that fluent. Of course, I wasn’t studying in German(except a lang class. I did do a two month immersion program, from scratch.)
But to me, fluent means in more situations than school or the neighborhood, and reading and writing on more than classwork. I’m proficient.
Yes, 10k. But translators, eg, are 20k. (Maybe that’s too high a standard.)
My spouse is fluent (reads, speaks, writes) in 3 languages because the languages were taught throughout school, beginning in the early elementary grades, as part of the core curriculum. College instruction was unnecessary. It’s fascinating for me to see how he can understand languages other than the 3 due to similarities. Unless you have a knack for languages, becoming truly fluent requires early exposure, IMO.
We were overseas once, and the waiter at the restaurant spoke 5 languages. He conversed with us in English, the tables on either side of us in French and German and still others in Arabic and Spanish. He told us the language skills were a requirement to work in the restaurant!
OP - every college we looked at required foreign language.
@lookingforward , yes, that is too high a standard. I have had near-native fluency in German (studied fully in the language for 4 years, wrote all my grad school papers in the language, yadda, yadda). Now I am about a C1 level if that says anything to you. I’m contemplating writing the master’s thesis I am working on now in German so I don’t have to translate all the source quotes - still have not decided. I learned it in college in the US. I did study overseas but I was fluent before I did that.
Basic fluency is just the ability to read, write (with a dictionary) and carry on basic conversations even with lots of “How do you say…?”. I’m looking for schools that will get students to that kind of basic level after a year or year and a half of the language. Also I am looking for schools that require a language because schools that don’t frequently can’t support a foreign language faculty and may offer languages only as “independent study” past the elementary levels, if at all. It was for me - I am learning two languages at the moment and looking into formal programs that can take me farther.
^ that’s not what is considered fluency. 1-1.5 years won’t get close
Like jumbo shrimp and virtual reality, this is an oxymoron.
I’d call that conversational, not fluent.
Rather than using general education language requirements as a proxy, it seems like it would be easier and more effective to look for programs offering a major in your language of interest.
@skieurope do you speak any foreign languages?
You’re well ahead of me. I speak better than DH, whose thesis required mastery in primary sources. I can function 24/7/365 and we lived immersed. But I can’t read, eg, a newspaper written in the highest Hochdeutsch. To me, that’s a limitation.
So, have you looked at course catalogs?
Btw, I feel learning langs is like a game. Know the rules, the pieces, and go for it.
Since I grew up on the European continent, English would be a foreign language for me, but yes, in addition, I am proficient in several others. @CCtoAlaska