@lookingforward I completely get it! Local newspapers might have more accessible language versus Die Welt or the NZZ. When I was trying to get my fluency back I read a lot of Der Spiegel and that helped a lot. I still struggle with more academic language especially in styles that are more outmoded. But then I try to read academic English and notice I frequently have to go slow, too. When it’s our native language, we don’t notice our deficiencies. You might skim over certain sections of articles in your native language, too, and encounter unfamiliar works - you just don’t think of it as an issue because you know you are natively fluent.
@lookingforward translation has very little to do with fluency in the language you are translating from and everything to do with the language you are translating to. It’s more important to have an excellent working vocabulary in that language than in the source language which makes sense if you think about it.
Also, for everyone saying you have to go abroad to learn a foreign language. I completely disagree. Half of the English speakers you meet overseas who are superbly fluent have never set foot in an English-speaking country. They learned at school and through effort and excellent instruction. Studying abroad is not a magic bullet and will never replace effort except for the most unusual “learn by ear” student. I took upper level literature classes having never studied abroad - reading Goethe, Schiller, speaking exclusively in German in class. Immersion will do great things for your spoken proficiency but it’s not the most important thing, in my opinion.
We can agree to disagree then, since I believe speaking and listening are the most critical part of language learning. But sure, if all you want is reading knowledge, then there is certainly no need to travel for that.
In addition to being specific to the individual person, much depends upon the country in question.
Unlike the US, foreign language instruction begins early, generally the third grade, if not earlier. But “excellent instruction” is by no means a be-all end-all. Practicing a language for 40-60 minutes of class time a day over a course of 10 years will not get one to a proficient level if one reverts to the native language immediately upon stepping outside the classroom. Having had conversations with typical Japanese or Brazilian HS students, proficient is not the adjective that I would ever use to describe their English skills.
The reason, IMO, people from Scandinavia and Benelux (as examples) are fluent in English has less to do with excellent instruction, and more to do with the fact that they are inundated with English 24/7. TV shows and movies are subtitled, not dubbed. Their pop stars record in English, not the local language. People from other countries are now benefiting more from this as streaming services (as well as other less-than-legal means of obtaining media) have become ubiquitous. And, of course, English is the lingua franca of the internet. An average person in the US learning German would not have those advantages.
@skieurope - I’m often in awe of Europeans’ ability to be fluent in so many languages. Possibly a result of the circles I meet them in, but most I know are perfectly fluent in at least 3 languages and if they come from a smaller country like the Netherlands, at least 3 outside their own language, generally English and 2 major European languages. I have a friend who is totally fluent in English, German, Dutch, French and Italian…as well as his native Spanish.
Funny, but when watching or reading in a foreign lang, I just slip into that mode. Common for some, I know.
What being abroad gives is you lose some control. You need to be able, in various (and unexpected) contexts. It’s not the confines of a class. But I think we agree that learning langs works best when there’s a fascination with the process. That rush when a foreign word or phrase is perfect and has no US equivalent.
I read a lot of common magazines and lit. It’s what led to the functional difference between DH’s skills and mine. Due to the nature of his work, he spoke a more academic version. Noticeable.
I believe University of Indiana is also supposed to have a good language program.
I agree with OP that it seems like languages are being de-emphasized. I was shocked that at my D’s school the foreign literature classes (at least in the language she’s studying) are taught in English! She’ll run out of classes taught in that language by Senior Year, and she started as a beginner in college. Wow!
@skieurope I think this is more of a native English speaker phenomenon when doing study abroad. It does not necessarily apply to non-native English speakers. It is very easy not to learn while on study abroad when the rest of the word is at ease with English if you haven’t put in a lot of time to get to a certain level of fluency beforehand. When I did study abroad, my abilities and European sounding name got me in the door to conversations. By the time there realized I was American, it was too late. Most of the students who were with me learned virtually nothing and ended up taking classes in the English department and speaking English the whole time while I earned proficiency enough for upper-level seminars. They just hadn’t had enough of the language before they went to stave off the pressure. I started learning when I was 20 so late even for American standards but the quality of the classes I took made a huge difference.
What is your kid’s language goal? That is where you need to start. As a language instructor myself, I can tell you that what you want is meaningless if what your kid wants is completely different. If your kid wants to get to CEFR C1, then a lot of interest and drive will be called for, and as you yourself know there are many routes to get to that level of fluency. However if all your kid really wants to do is just pass the minimum FL college graduation requirement, then whatever that college offers will be good enough.
My son was a foreign language major at a school known for its languages, and he would never claim fluency even after four years and honors. He’d only cop to “proficient.”
Summer Intensive (hands on or typical classroom or abroad) + one year with 4 hours of class a week would allow one to be conversational.
Penn state’s summer program would cover Temple’s 1001-1003 sequence, and in a year cover 2001 (intermediate) and 2021 (conversation).
At Penn State, after the 1-2-3 sequence covered by the summer program, there’d be 201 (reading and speaking) and 202 (grammar and writing), which can be taken one after the other or simultaneously. If taken simultaneously, there’s a choice of courses in literature and history.
S1 doesn’t cop to fluency after 5 years of Spanish or a degree in Russian. He is now living overseas where his Russian has improved hugely over the past eight months, and is picking up Ukrainian (and working with a tutor, as Russian and Ukrainian are not that similar).
I took six semesters of German and got totally schooled when trying to communicate in Bavaria. Hochdeutsch was fine, regional dialects were an entirely different story.
Reading and writing are not typically considered “conversational”.
After a year living someplace where only the new language is spoken, it is very possible to become conversational at a social and everyday communication level. Does this mean the person can read and write fluently…no. That takes a different skill set…related, but different.
Does one year give a kid academic language fluency? Probably not. In other words, could the student go to school where only the new language is used for instruction and find he has fluency in the language? Probably not.
I think the OP needs to clarify what the “fluency” goal is. Because depending on what the person is doing with the new language, it could take a lot longer than one year to be FULLY fluent.
You can’t be conversational if you can’t read (and writing helps in structuring discourse). Being able to read for conversation in a Foreign language is a great skill to have and a transferable skill at that.
I’d say that with high aptitude and treating it as a full time job, it takes 2 years of intensive study + study abroad to be fluent in a European language. Longer for languages with cases and longer still for languages with structures that strongly differ from English, such as Vietnamese or Chinese (I can dig up the dod language scale if you wish).
Conversational (to be able to hold a conversation with one’s peers without sounding stupid) is quicker.
This is a really frustrating group. I asked for recommendations for good, solid undergraduate foreign language programs and got a discourse on how to learn a foreign language and how my approach is stupid. Thanks to all the people who actually gave the “college confidential” on different programs.
I mean, just say you don’t know what programs are good if you don’t know.
Don’t get mad at us because you asked the wrong question. Your question was:
Several users have correctly answered “nowhere.” Several users have also asked you to define what you are looking for, e.g."I think the OP needs to clarify what the “fluency” goal is. " And you really did not make clear that your were asking for yourself rather than your child until later.
So without you further defining what you are hoping to accomplish after a year, it’s difficult to provide better answers.
@skieurope I asked two extremely clear questions. How hard can it be to understand that I am looking for recommendations for colleges with good foreign language programs and which ones require foreign language in undergrads? A reasonable question about quality of program would have been “For which language?” but nobody even tried to clarify that. Such a huge waste of time, although I really appreciate the people who offered suggestions and I will look into them.
OP - With all due respect, I didn’t realize you were asking for yourself until page 3 of this thread and in a different thread you were speaking of your child not being interested in FL. There are a plethora of schools with great undergraduate foreign language programs. It would have been helpful to have known from your original post that you were looking for programs for yourself and your general geographic area (assuming you weren’t planning on moving). I’m also not clear if you are looking to write your thesis in a foreign language, why we aren’t talking about grad schools instead of undergrad programs.
This is a really helpful group of people but it helps to have clarity and all the relevant information in the original question.
@MYOS1634 “You can’t be conversational if you can’t read”. I think it totally depends on the way the language is acquired. I grew up in a trilingual family. I didn’t learn to speak english until I was in school. I was very conversational without being able to read at all. I still can’t read very well one of the languages which I can speak fluently.