<p>Which is better for a top 10% with easier course load or with a toughest course load? </p>
<p>Since, many prep schools such as Andover, Exeter do not rank, many students takes easier courses to qualify in cum laude society. These students tend to take their first APs in 11th grade and try to avoid subjects they are not good. Many math/science students avoid history and humanities. Many humanities kids choose fluff subject such as barely making AP AB calculus in 12th grade or even taking AP Physics or AP chemistry. Based on history qualifying exams, prep school allows only 22-24 students to take European History in 1oth grade. Only 5-7 students take AP BC calculus in 10th grade. Very few kids take AP sciences in 9th or 10th grade. Thus, the GPA of the kids who are taking the hardest possible course load in humanities as well as science (AP scince, math and humanities and doing well) is lower than rest of the kids who are making the cum laude society based on easier courses. Based on grades, the cum laude society is selected from top 10% in the beginning of 12th grade and another lower 10% at the end of 12th grade. If they take and normalize the hardest course load then you will find that cum laude society is very different. </p>
<p>Does elite colleges consider these factors? Otherwise, they are just selecting kids based on GPA with easier courses. To complicated matter how many kids who have higher GPAs are involved in ECS, which are time consuming such as varsity athlete, publishing, debates, music or maybe even a combination of many and other time consuming activities. Even after this most demanding ECs and most demanding academic schedules, if someone performs and do very well but is not in top 5% do colleges, give them break?</p>
<p>Our h.s. college guidance staff always emphasizes that colleges look at the nature of the course load; the more challenging the better. But of course,as they alwyas say, it is better to get an A in an honors course. (The Cum Laude Society isn’t just for the top 10 percent but the top 20, and at our school membership is based on other factors as well; kids in the top 10 percent but taking weaker schedules often do not get into Cum Laude, and kids with somewhat lower but still top 20 percent credentials and harder courses do, though sometimes not until senior year when it is too late to let the college admissions offices know). That said, I think colleges care very much about top decile; it counts in the USNWR rankings, alas.</p>
<p>That’s really amazing. (My son is on schedule to take the equivalent of AP BC calculus in ninth grade if he stays in state, and he is not the only one here with that schedule.) The availability of really advanced math courses at Red and Blue is one of the most attractive features those schools have to some families I know. So very few enrollees are in those schools to take full advantage of the math offerings? </p>
<p>To answer the basic question in this thread, YES, of course elite colleges consider what courses an applicant took in high school. Indeed, at the many regional information sessions I have attended in my town, college representatives almost always say that is the most important thing they look at in evaluating applicants for admission: what kind of courses did they take in high school, the more challenging the better. </p>
<p>Of course none of us know about specific cases, but in general I would feel a lot more comfortable having a child have a top 20 percent (but NOT top 5 percent) class rank at Exeter or Andover with a challenging course load, and major national EC involvement in something my child is passionate about, than having a child have a number 1 class rank at the best suburban high school in my town. The child who is taking on the most challenging environment would, I’m quite sure, fare better in college admission applications than the child who plays it safe to preserve a grade point average and class rank. </p>
<p>Good luck to your child in the admissions competition. Nothing is for sure, but doing what is challenging today is usually easily recognized by admissions officers at the top schools.</p>
<p>Ap Calc BC is generally not intended to be taken in 10th grade. If a school has 5-7 students taking it in 10th grade, it’s very impressive, especially if it’s not a math &science magnet school such as Stuy, TJHS, and a few other such schools. Ditto taking AP science in 9th& 10th grade. Your examples do not provide evidence that Exeter and Andover are for slackers. To the contrary.</p>
<p>Well my kid has taken the hardest possible course load including Linear Algebra and multivariable calculus, AP Euro/US, All AP sciences, AP English and AP language and beyond it. Kid scored the highest grade in few subjects among all students but it is B only (the highest score in the class for Honors AP Physics and Honors AP Chem or AP European Class). Kid has five in all AP College board exams, but in school-based exams the highest score is only B (Not a single student has an A in Chemistry or History). Thus, she barely makes a top 10%. </p>
<p>No the prep school has its share of kids who are very motivated and are ranked on many activities in national levels. Therefore, this year we are waiting what happens to her college application game. We are hoping that college will look her hardest possible course load any student has ever taken with the hardest possible extracurricular activities (according to her guidance counselor). By the end of this year when school decision comes out, we will know if it was all right to pursue passions over just trying to maintain GPAs.</p>
<p>Tokenadult, I assume that you are talking about he UMTYMP program? I knew kids who participated in that program when I lived in Minnesota, but it didn’t always work out well for them – they were sometimes so accelerated that they had trouble finding math classes after that, or they may have dropped out of the program. I agree with Marite that BC calculus is not the typical course for 10th graders – I also believe that there are developmental issues regarding abstract reasoning which make this the case. I don’t think that the fact that most 10th graders are taking Algebra II/Trigonometry means that they are either slow or untalented in math.</p>
<p>In fact, I think that few kids are ready for Algebra at the age of 11 or 12 – once again, based on developmental studies I’ve read. For a student to take BC Calc in 10th grade, they would have to have taken Algebra 1 in 6th grade or so – is that right? The fact that most kids don’t do this doesn’t seem to mean that we have a dearth of talented math students in this country. </p>
<p>Finally, I have concern about the idea of accelerating too fast – I tend to think that some depth is lost in the process. So, to the OP, I would have to say that everything I’ve read says that Adcoms look at the grades within the context of difficulty. From a learning standpoint, why wouldn’t any parent want their child to take the most difficult course work they can handle? Real learning seems to take place at that place where the student just barely understands what is going on at first – when they spend more time, they really get the idea.</p>
<p>You could ask your daughter’s counselor to discuss the grading system of the school in her recommendation letter to colleges. Some mention should be made of those courses where no one received an “A.”</p>
<p>If your daughter’s passion for learning comes out in her essays and extracurricular activites, she should have no problem getting into a good school. However, I wonder if, after her very hard work in prep school, she will want to continue at that pace, or if she will want to slow down and enjoy her college life. Are you flexible enough to allow her to find her own way?</p>
<p>Yes, that’s right. My son, and a few other homeschooled kids we know locally, joined the [UMTYMP[/url</a>] program at sixth-grade age, taking algebra I (in his case, for the second time, after the [url=<a href=“http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/math/M011/]EPGY”>http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/math/M011/]EPGY</a> algebra I](<a href=“http://www.itcep.umn.edu/umtymp/]UMTYMP[/url”>http://www.itcep.umn.edu/umtymp/) course) and algebra II that school year. That school year had 150 students (five sections with 30 students each) in the UMTYMP first-year program. The second year my son had geometry (not his first time for that course, either) and precalculus at seventh-grade age, among 120 fellow students (four sections with 30 students each). Now he is in calculus I (and just getting into new material) at eighth-grade age, with about 80 classmates (five workshop sections of 16 students each). UMTYMP’s calculus I course, which takes all school year, is just like a one-semester honors calculus course at the U of MN as to syllabus (but different as to mode of instruction) and would adequately prepare most students for the AP calculus AB exam. The calculus II course (next school year) would be ample preparation for the AP calculus BC exam, which it might be expedient for my son to take. </p>
<p>We are looking at Exeter and Andover for next year and have interviews scheduled on-campus the first week of January. Exeter’s math team is quite impressive, and Andover’s physics team is too. What we have found by touring local independent high schools is that very few schools in Minnesota (possibly NO schools in Minnesota) offer any more opportunity for advanced, in-depth study of math and science than we have already arranged here through UMTYMP and our local gifted homeschooling support group. After touring the last few [NAIS](<a href=“http://www.nais.org/]NAIS[/url]-affiliated”>http://www.nais.org/)-affiliated</a> private day schools we haven’t already visited, we will tour some of the top public schools in town, all of which are available to us through Minnesota’s open enrollment statute. Thus far we find that with VERY FEW exceptions, top math and science kids in Minnesota are in UMTYMP, and stay in UMTYMP, if they are looking for the best opportunity to advance in their domains of interest. So what we are looking for, really, is a good fit for putting together a challenging program in all the other NON-math and NON-science subjects a high schooler should study, in a social environment that encourages achievement and community involvement. Our homeschooling support group’s joint classes involve my son with a great group of kids that he likes very well and that I think are good examples to him, but for us parents to keep those classes going we have to do a lot of administrative tasks (e.g., hiring teachers) and a lot of driving in the midst of our busy lives in a sprawling metropolitan area. </p>
<p>Different educational choices involve different trade-offs. Because Exeter and Andover are so conspicuous nationally in offering math and science courses much more advanced than those at most high schools, I’m a bit surprised, as I indicated, that few of the students who come forward to enroll at those schools are taking advantage of the most advanced courses they could take. Marite’s point is quite correct that it is just plain unusual nationally for students younger than twelfth-graders to take the kind of courses that are available at Red and Blue, and certainly the private day schools here in Minnesota that have very good national reputations offer nothing of that kind. For the rare student who really, truly wants to take an AP calculus BC course at tenth-grade age, Exeter and Andover are possibilities, as is the much more commonly encountered (but still quite rare) choice of early part-time enrollment in a college math course. Minnesota kids with that desire generally stick with UMTYMP. UMTYMP is a great program, but we are looking at what is best to do for humanities courses and sports involvement over the next few years, hence our decision to apply to Exeter and Andover, with an interview visit planned to see what those schools are like.</p>
<p>We are anxious but will not come in our kids way because</p>
<ol>
<li><p>People accelerate not because they are trying to impress but because they love to push their boundaries by learning many other things in depth. I think kids have choice to make about their own life if they want to accelerate faster than norms</p></li>
<li><p>People accelerate not because they are trying to impress but they love the stuff.</p></li>
<li><p>Sometime kids have multiple interest and thus they try to take explore multiple areas before deciding what is the best thing they may have national ranking in it but they find a different passion they have never expected in the other subject. </p></li>
<li><p>Sometime kids have multiple interest and thus they try to take explore multiple areas. They may national ranking in math/science subject but as they explore humanities, they find that they have found the passion, which runs deep as they can start to notice that though math logic they can find humanities much more interesting and they can apply it in many new ways. They excel in it and this gives them thrills. Vice versa may be true also. However, kids choose to pursue passion, as they want to make a big difference in whatever career path they will take. Thus, many kids at college change their majors.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>If your sons and daughters are among top 10% in andover or exerter, you do not have to worry about their college admission. They most likely will end up in extremely selective colleges.</p>
<p>tokenadult – I think homeschooling is probably the only way to really accelerate as you describe. fwiw, I know of a math olympiad student who did UMTYMP and stayed in a private HS in MN – the student is currently working on an advanced degree in math. Have you looked at Blake? I also know several students who did very well there, and are now at Harvard/other selective schools.</p>
<p>parentny – my point about acceleration was not about skipping grades or moving ahead from a curricular standpoint. It’s more about the value of just moving as fast as you can through textbooks – not that I’m suggesting that that’s what your student is doing. My husband has an advanced degree in math, and I find that when he reviewed material with our kids, he always had something more to add than what the text or class offered. It’s more about depth in pursuing each topic, whether it’s algebra, geometry, functions or whatever. Once again, not a personal comment about your child’s school, but for some kids moving quickly through a curriculum just means plug and chug – using formulas to answer problems in the homework or exams.</p>
<p>“Are you flexible enough to allow her to find her own way?”</p>
<p>Prep school was her idea as we have not much $$$$$ to help her. She decided to apply by herself and was offered substantial aid by schools. She has many friends who are offered (maybe close to 5-10 kids) who are equally bright and are on full aid (some are from rich families and are very bright too). They tend to push each other by motivating and challenging one another. I could say that by going to this school her horizon has broadened in multiple ways rather than being a just a nationally ranked math/science kid alone. She has always chosen to do her own things along with the group of her friends who are maintaining similar profile. So in a way our influence is limited to that she eats proper food, have good sleeping habits and stay in touch. Rest of her life decisions are based on her own will and her friends who share similar work habits.</p>
Good luck with this!!! Now that our older son is in college, I worry about these issues, not academic ones. He now is under the weather – I’m sure it’s from lack of sleep, and living in close quarters with so many people from all over the world. I did send vitamins, and I hope he will take our advice about making sure he gets enough rest.</p>
<p>It’s threads like this that give me the vapors . . . :)</p>
<p>And I really do mean that in a very good way. I just remain stunned sometimes reading about the achievements of these kids, but also stunned about the school environments that make even these kids and their parents insecure and nervous. </p>
<p>parentny, all I can say is that your kid sounds like a wonderful, passionate, intellectually curious person – and I’m sure that will come out in the application process. I wouldn’t worry too much about your original question – the colleges you have in mind will, I’m sure, have a long track record of evaluating applicants from your daughter’s school.</p>
I’m sure your daughter will do well in her college application process. I would also think that she’ll have wonderful counseling at her school, so the important thing is to develop an appropriate list of schools, and help her find the best fit for her future growth and development. But I also think that it is important for her to find a place where other students are as interested in learning as she is, and schools like the University of Chicago, Swarthmore and, of course, some of the Ivys/Little Ivys come to mind. Is she currently a senior?</p>
<p>haahahahahaah you are in same boat like us and wooried. Please slookt at my privat message. I have got some additional info from chinaman whose kid is attending Princeton. Good luck</p>
<p>stockmarket: Thanks. My daughter has told me about chainmans kid. She told us that according to that senior who also came from her school, Princeton is very generous in aid. They not only match any schools aid but also can even covers parental contribution/ student summer time earnings. We are looking at Princeton very closely because of their funding initiatives similar to prep schools.</p>