Working with my S21 on colleges he wants to visit starting next spring or summer. I’ve heard some of the top publics with strong engineering (Purdue, Michigan, Wisconsin) it can be tough to make it through the gauntlet so I’d like to suggest to him engineering schools that want/expect almost all students to progress rather than being built around weeding out students.
Another way to ask this is which schools have the greatest weed out mentality so he can consider them with that in mind?
All engineering programs are hard. If you don’t have the aptitude and work ethic, you aren’t going to make it. If you are concerned about your son being one of the ones who is weeded out, my advice would be to attend a school that allows you to drop engineering but remain at the school in a different major. I went to a LAC that also offered engineering. Over half the students who started out in engineering graduated as business majors.
I know that Purdue and Michigan both place students in a first-year engineering curriculum. For U of M, a student has to have, I believe, a 2.0 GPA to proceed to a major (and someone please correct me if I’m wrong on that number). At Purdue, a first-year engineering student will request admission at the end of the freshman year into two preferred engineering departments; if the student has a 3.2 overall GPA and a 3.2 in his/her engineering courses, then admission into the top choice is pretty much guaranteed. (See, https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/Academics/FirstYear/T2M). The 3.2 cutoff is relevant to certain engineering majors that have “capacity limitations.”
Pitt also has a unified first-year curriculum for its engineering students, but I don’t know how difficult it is to get into a specific engineering major afterwards or what (if any) GPA threshholds there are for that. At Cincinnati you apply into a specific engineering program, e.g., mechanical engineering; I don’t know how hard it is to change to another engineering major. Case Western Reserve University has a “single-door” policy with admissions, so that once you are admitted to the university as a whole, you can go into whatever major you wish – no weed-out involved (this kind of approach to admissions is not common, however, in schools that have strong engineering programs).
My daughter is a first year engineering student at Purdue. They have a terrible reputation of being one of the worst “weed out schools”. To be guaranteed to transition to your major of choice requires a 3.2 GPA but some of the less competitive engineerings programs only need a 2.0. The majority of students successfully transition to major. The school also gives students a ton of support to succeed, but kids need to be self motivated to take advantage of study sessions, office hours, recitations, tutoring, etc…
My daughter has friends in engineering programs all over the country at schools from the T10 to #200. They are all working their tails off and sharing similar struggles.
The best possible advice I can give is to have your son take the most rigorous STEM courses available to him and to develop good study habits while still in hs. He’s going to have to work very hard, no matter where he goes for engineering.
Purdue admits to first year engineering, then has students compete for admission to their majors based on college GPA.
Wisconsin admits to major, but has progression requirements that may include college GPA as high as 3.5 for some majors to stay in the major.
Michigan admits to first year engineering, but students may declare major if the have at least a 2.0 GPA and C grades in prerequisites.
Therefore, Michigan is the most desirable for those who want to avoid a competitive or weed out environment.
To avoid a weed out environment, choose a college where declaring the major does not require a high GPA or competitive admission, or (if the student is sure what kind of engineering s/he wants) where the student is directly admitted to the major and needs to maintain a 2.0 GPA and C grades to stay in.
Harvey Mudd appears to be the tech-oriented school with the highest 4-year graduation rate, at 86%. Programs that are set within universities may be challenging to research and compare. Nonetheless, HMC’s figure could serve as a good benchmark for figures you are able to locate.
I think there are a lot of things to consider. Certainly lower barriers to entry to the engineering program and fewer restrictions to getting into and staying in a major are worth considering. The level of support for students when they struggle is also a factor. That is maybe one reason why Mudd comes off well — very intense, but also smaller class sizes and a lot of support.
Thanks for input so far. Does anyone have insights on NC State? That’s our in-state option. I know it’s well regarded but don’t know much about the atmosphere/culture of engineering there other than it attracts high caliber students.
Don’t anticipate S would be able to get into Mudd nor be inclined to attend such a specialized school. Ideally he’d attend some place where if he changes his mind he’d be equally happy to be in the business program. Michigan is an obvious choice from that perspective – but he’d have to get in and we’d have to justify paying so much more…not sure on both accounts.
@gandalf78 --I’ll post this on Engineering majors too – good idea!
NCSU starts engineering students in a first year engineering program. Minimum criteria to be eligible to enter (“CODA”) a major is 2.0 GPA and C grades, but some department are “full” and require higher GPAs:
There is something to be said for private schools in this regard,
Less “weed out” engineering schools
Lehigh, hard but not abusive
Rochester (More academic than RIT, but still not a weeder)
WPI, less academic, more project based
Rochester Institute of Technology, less academic more project based
Tufts University - More liberal artsy with decent engineering.
Illinois Institute of Technology
You should also look for a school that has a freshman engineering LLC for your S21. I will shamelessly plug Virginia Tech after my S17 spent a year in their Galileo LLC. It’s a bit on the nerdy side, but my S found that living in a dorm with all freshman engineers was incredibly helpful. They were all in it together - every test, every project, every paper, every quiz. It was a truly collaborative environment. Galileo has a 90% graduation success rate for engineers.
VT also has plenty of other majors if he were to decide that engineering wasn’t his thing.
Just be aware that at some universities the business school can also be very competitive for admission. This can be especially true for universities that have direct admission into the business school.
To be the gadfly here, I’m going to suggest your son pick schools with the business program he wants that happen to have an engineering college as well.
Making it thru engineering anywhere is tough. According to a 2013 academic paper reviewing the research on why engineers drop out, the national rate is about 50%. (https://www.rise.hs.iastate.edu/projects/CBiRC/IJEE-WhyTheyLeave.pdf) And it isn’t because so many colleges are “weed-out”.
The people I know that made it thru engineering did so because they were determined from the onset to do so, come hell or high water. A kid that starts as an engineer to “see what it is like” is the one much more likely to switch, IMHO. Nothing they do the 1st year is going to show them what being an engineer is like (with the exception of a few schools that have an Intro to Engineering class and perhaps a project). Instead they take math, science, more math, and perhaps a course 2nd semester related to their major. A kid starting frosh year wondering what engineers do and whether it is right for them is going to end that year with the same questions.
Of the schools you mentioned Purdue then Wisconsin then Michigan as far as weed out. Purdue was like University of Illinois by saying the old look to your right /left one of you won’t be here after the first year type of crap. Saying that, Michigan is extremely tough. There are weed out classes like Calc 2 and Physics 2/3 but others will pick other so called weed out classes. All your first year classes besides like 2 are with the LSA students going into medical school, math and the sciences. Engineering states that after your first semester the avg engineering student is at about 3.3 GPA from freshman to senior year. It’s a good goal for internships also. If your ending at 2.0 in engineering you won’t have a chance at internships and really not showing your getting the material. Saying that, it’s very tough no matter what school your going to. Even the best students will find it tough. But it’s not supposed to be easy.