I’m transferring from a CC, and I’m lucky enough to have gotten into UC Berkely, UCLA, and UCSB. I’m pre-med (but a social science major). I was hoping someone could tell me which one of these schools is best for pre-med, and which school is the least difficult for stuff like OChem
Ok…as you know, Calif is the most unluckiest state for premeds. At all good schools, OChem will be very hard.
However, of your 3 choices, their probably will be fewer gunners at SB. The other two are filled with strong premeds who’ve managed to get in as frosh. You’d probably get weeded out there.
^ I can’t agree less with @mom2collegekids
Unless if you are willing to stay up till 3:30 am (as my daughter offen does)!
All pre-meds at the UCs have periods when they regularly stay up till 4 am studying. It’s the reality of weed-out pre-med classes.
Lots of misconception on this thread.
You’ll most likely thrive at a school where you’re surrounded by very bright, dynamic, well-disciplined, highly motivated students. Your peers could influence your study habits, academic outlook and behavior towards academic excellence.
Among the three given choices, Berkeley is the best choice. It has been able to send more students to med schools than the other two, and this is specially true at the top medical schools in the country. Berkeley is in the top 8 feeder schools to Harvard & Yale Med. In addition, it’s 2nd feeder school to JHU Med, UCLA Med, UCSD Med, and number one feeder school to UCSF Med. There are data that will show you this.
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^^^
That is very misleading. The fact that UCB has been able to send more students to med school has NOTHING to do with this student. All premeds aren’t equal. Your info is only meaningful if all are the same.
Both UCB and UCLA are filled with high stats premeds who started as freshman. This student will be a CC transfer.
The reason that UCB may be a top feeder school to tippy top med schools is that it begins with tippy top students. There is nothing NOTHING special that UCB does that gets those kids into those med schools.
At all 3 schools, this student will be surrounded by junior/senior premeds who are bright, dynamic, and so forth. They would have to be in order to have survived the weeding process of this first two years of premed. This student, although technically a rising jr, hasn’t yet been thru the wall of fire from Ochem I and II.
If this student is serious about med school, and would be very disappointed if Ochem grades at UCLA or UCB weeded him out, then a safer path (not foolproof by any means) would be to go to USSB.
Lastly…Since the UCs (even UCLA and UCB) have a lowish acceptance rate to med school, getting into ANY MD school is the goal.
60% of frosh were straight A from highschool coming to UCLA last year. Who do you think will be the winner, between the 2 groups, in fighting for the scarce A’s?
(My daughter coming to UCLA as a freshman Regents scholar, already has to fight hard in her first year …)
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However, of your 3 choices, their probably will be fewer gunners at SB.
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Ack! *there (ugh!!!)
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It has been able to send more students to med schools than the other two, and this is specially true at the top medical schools in the country. Berkeley is in the top 8 feeder schools to Harvard & Yale Med. In addition, it's 2nd feeder school to JHU Med, UCLA Med, UCSD Med, and number one feeder school to UCSF Med. There are data that will show you this.
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Berkeley reports many of its med school acceptance numbers across 5 year periods, specifically the years 2010-2014
Over that 5 year period, Berkeley has had roughly 4500 med school applicants…about 900 per year. And each year, only about half of their applicants get at least one MD acceptance.
Of those 4500, only…
71 matriculated to UCSF
51 …UCLA Geffen
46…UCSD
and less that 9 students matriculated at each of the following med schools: Harvard, Yale, JHU, and Stanford.
These numbers are over a 5 year period. The idea that less than 2 students per year are matriculating to HYS JHU hardly makes UCB a “feeder school” to these schools.
And 10-12 matriculations each year to UCSF, UCLA, and UCSD (which are their instate med schools) is hardly super impressive.
Please clarify it first what exactly was your reason for opposing the OP to attend Cal. Did you assume the OP doesn’t have the intellectual prowess to handle Chem 3A/B at Cal because he’s coming in as a CC transfer, or because Cal deflates GPAs more than either UCLA or UCSB does?
If you assumed the OP couldn’t hurdle OChem because he’s a transfer student, I think that is a very condescending attitude. Not every transfer student will fail in Cal’s most difficult subjects. In fact, many of them have done very well at Cal and have went on to reap successes in life (academic or otherwise). Someone even graduated as the class valedictorian/highest honor and delivered the valedictory speech.
Now, if you’re thinking Berkeley is notorious when it comes to curving grades, kindly take a look at the links below and tell me which school has been the worst out of those three:
http://www.gradeinflation.com/Ucberkeley.html
http://www.gradeinflation.com/Ucla.html
http://www.gradeinflation.com/Ucsantabarbara.html
First of all, I wouldn’t necessarily assume that a community college transfer is less capable than a student who started at Berkeley or UCLA as a freshman. They may simply have had less money or wanted to stay closer to home to start out with, but many CC transfers go to one of those two universities and do just fine even in pre-med and other difficult classes. It’s possible that the adjustment will be tough…but it’s also possible it’ll be relatively smooth.
Second, although I generally agree with mom2ck, I think it’s a little extreme to suggest that Berkeley does nothing to get top students into med schools. I think it’s a combination of factors - yes, those students started ahead of others, but also Berkeley has an excellent education that prepares them well for medical school. However, I do think that the inputs probably matter more than the education.
Third of all, Berkeley and UCLA are tough but UCSB is no slouch. UCLA and Berkeley are more selective because more students apply for them, but the student profile at UCSB is actually pretty much the same as the student profile at UCLA and only very slightly below that of Berkeley’s as far as students’ high school GPAs, class ranks, and SAT/ACT scores go. So, academically speaking, OP would be with students who had the same level of achievement in high school.
That said, I would still imagine that the atmosphere at UCSB is less competitive than the other two - not because the students are any less capable but simply because the atmosphere and personality of the university is less competitive than UCLA and Berkeley. I have a friend who was pre-med at UCLA and she said it was super intense. (She’s in med school now, after taking a few years after college to earn an MPH and work.)
Well, you do realize that the data are self-reporting which, therefore, suffers accuracy due to low voluntary participation.
Care to show me your proof?
@reden2016 there is not “low voluntary participation”. 85% participation is NOT low.
oh…and the proof is right on UCB’s website. Not hard to find at all…easily googled. https://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/MedStats
If this student chooses Cal or UCLA, he will be “behind” in establishing the needed relationships with profs for research and excellent LORs. It will be very hard to suddenly “stand out” when compared to the others who’ve been there since frosh year. It will be hard at UCSB, but not as hard since logically, there will be fewer superstars there.
It might help if this student provided his grades for:
Bio I and II and labs
Gen Chem I and II and labs
Physics I and II
Calculus
What is the overall GPA
since he didn’t take Orgo I and II at his CC, that is a concern in my mind. If he gets blown out in Orgo at a top UC, then his MD med school chances are seriously threatened, if not derailed.
I’m looking at this purely from a strategy standpoint. Calif is the most unluckiest state for premeds. If going to med school is his absolute goal, then take the path that will more likely get him there.
You know that I typically agree with you on most of your posts. But…
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Berkeley has an excellent education that prepares them well for medical school. <<
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While this may or may not be true (since it can be argued that undergrads don’t prepare students for med school), this student will likely have taken most of his premed prereqs at a school other than UCB, so he would not be benefitting from whatever UCB might be doing to “prepare him well for medical school”. The classes that he’ll be taking to complete his major will have little/nothing to do with medical school. Unless this student has skipped his prereqs with the intention of taking them all at a UC, that ship has sailed.
All three would give you want you need, but only you can determine what it is that you want.
Personally, if faced with this decision (big congrats, btw…) I would check out the pre-med advising offices and services at all three schools, then go with the one you feel best supports it’s students during the MCAT and application process of med school, i.e. individual vs. group teacher recommendations, pre-med class scheduling, pre-med student groups, etc.
For one thing, the OP (or in general a transfer student) will be behind in doing independent research with some UC facility as those prime for med-school offen start doing that from freshman year (my daughter started in her second quarter and already in her third quarter started publishing papers).
13 is right. Choose the university at which there are more research opportunities and more medically related EC opportunities. There are sometimes waiting lists for these since they are highly sought after. Without scientific research and medically related volunteering, the OP will have a difficult time. UCLA is surrounded by hospitals and likely has more research opportunities.
Also consider which university will give more access to professors and others with whom the OP can develop a close relationship. This is necessary for meaningful letters of reference. This will be more difficult coming from a CC and having only two years to do this.
The other consideration is which university will be better for Plan B. Half of all applicants do not get accepted to medical school. (And that is not counting the pre-meds who weeded themselves out after getting poorer grades than they expected on entering college). What is the Plan B and which university will be better for achieving Plan B?
Where is that data? These claims sound fishy when given without any links to back it up.
UCs are large impersonal places. Don’t count on finding much support. At Cal and UCLA it looks like pre-med advising is handled by the generalists in the career center. They will talk to you about med school, right after talking to the kid before you about jobs in banking and the kid after you will be interested in a PhD in Art History. While their help is better than just guessing, you aren’t going to get the services of someone that really specializes in helping kids get into med school. The only one of the three listed that seems to have an actual pre-health advisor is UCSB, and that person is listed as part of a Letters&Science honors program so it isn’t clear this advising is available to all. Sources: [ul][]https://career.berkeley.edu/Info/PreHealthAppt []http://www.career.ucla.edu/Pre-Health-Career-Services [li]http://www.duels.ucsb.edu/honors/advantages/health[/ul]OP, my advice is two-fold. First, learn about what it takes to get into med school (and what you should have been doing up to now, given that you are entering your junior year in college). Lots of sources online. A great starting place is https://www.rhodes.edu/content/health-professions-advising-hpa on the “PreMed Essentials” link. There is also a good handbook at https://www.amherst.edu/campuslife/careers/act/gradstudy/health/guide[/li]
Second, “which school is the least difficult for stuff like OChem” misses the point. These classes are going to be difficult anywhere. There may be some more competition from the other excellent sophomores who are the ones typically taking this class at Cal or UCLA, but its not going to be a piece of cake at UCSB either.
I know three UC grads who got into med schools WITHOUT research or publishing.
For all the CC talk about research, the fact is that MOST undergrads at the very big state Us do little research, and even less publishing.
And they manage to get into med schools because med school admissions committees know how big research Us work. Which is why research usually counts as third in importance as admissions criteria. (The first two are grades and MCAT scores. And non-research medically related ECs – such as working in a doctor’s office or volunteering in a medical setting – often count just as much as research. )
In fact, one of the grads I’m referring to was an English major at Cal who did all his med school prerequisites as well. Much of his med school interview was spent discussing Shakespeare with a professor who was also an English major back in the day! Another med student was a CC transfer to UCSB, where she did no research, but was president of the biology club and worked in a doctor’s office part-time. She’s now at a top-10 med school, thanks to stellar grades and stellar MCATs.
So let’s not exaggerate the importance of research or publishing for med school admissions. It’s not terribly accurate, and it could discourage otherwise strong students and prospective doctors who are finding it difficult to land these research spots at their schools.
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know three UC grads who got into med schools WITHOUT research or publishing.
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These could be situations where the “devil is in the details”.
- They may have residents of other states
- They may have been nontrads
- They may have been URMs
- They may have some other medically-related experiences that were meaningful to adcoms.
- They may have been low-income and their “free time” needed to be spent earning money.
- They may have been athletes.
I agree that “publishing” may not be necessary for many/most med school applicants. However, this is a Calif resident. The rules of thumb for the rest of the country may not apply here. To get thru the first filter, MCAT and GPA are needed. Then for the down-selection by human-eyes, things like reseach and publishing might make the difference between getting an interview or not, unless the student has “something else” that is meaningful (such as worked in a doctor’s office, as mentioned above. I can imagine that the Cal English major may have had some sort of time-demanding major-related EC/research that impressed.)
Med schools are only interviewing 5-15% of applicants…and then only accepting about 33-50% of those inteviewed.
This student, if he will be a traditional, unhooked applicant, will be “behind” in making connections to get research positions and getting great LORs. When you go to a UC where there are 800-900 med school applicants (not to mention the vet/dental/PA applicants), it’s going to be harder for a transfer student to adequately impress a few profs to get those awesome LORs. LORs are very important for med schools. The UCs do not do Committee Letters.
Research may be a plus that helps a candidate, but according to the premed guide at Rhodes I mentioned earlier it has become less important:
There is one other thing the OP needs to understand
Not just in this way, but in terms of timeline. A student wanting to go right to med school after college needs to take the MCATs and take some other steps the end of junior year. It sounds like the OP hasn’t taken the required premed classes at their CC and will take them after transferring. In one way this is good; med schools are a little suspicious of kids that take the required classes at a CC unless they take some upper division classes at their 4-year, and a social science major wouldn’t typically be doing this. On the other hand, the OP will probably end applying during the year after college graduation and taking a gap year.
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Berkeley is the best choice. It has been able to send more students to med schools than the other two, and this is specially true at the top medical schools in the country. Berkeley is in the top 8 feeder schools to Harvard & Yale Med. In addition, it's 2nd feeder school to JHU Med, UCLA Med, UCSD Med, and number one feeder school to UCSF Med. There are data that will show you this.Where is that data? These claims sound fishy when given without any links to back it up.
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@mikemac You’re right. It is fishy. It doesn’t “sound” fishy because many will assume that SOM adcoms are just so impressed when a Cal or UCLA app comes in that they naturally interview/accept. However, much of the premed app process is counter-intuitive. This is why premeds who choose tippy-top schools often end up weeded out when they may not have been if they had chosen a school where they could be a superstar…instead of a tiny light in the Milky Way.
With 1800 UCLA/ Cal applicants sending apps out to many of the same SOMs each year, these schools’ names are ho-hum. If i were an adcom, I might perk up when I see an impressive app from a student from Merced or elsewhere because I would be thinking, “hey, let’s see what they’re doing there. I already know what’s going on at Cal. Wow! He’s got 5 amazing, detailed LORs from profs who think he’s something special. Let’s interview him.”
The truth is, few Cal med school applicants are matriculating at H, Y, S, or JHU (further proof that where you go means little). And, that’s ok. Where you go to med school in the US isn’t very important. Getting into at least ONE US MD school is an amazing achievement.
Seriously, the 1800 Cal /UCLA applicants that will be submitting this next app cycle are just hoping and praying for ANY acceptance.
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Personally, if faced with this decision (big congrats, btw...) I would check out the pre-med advising offices and services at all three schools, then go with the one you feel best supports it's studentsUCs are large impersonal places. Don’t count on finding much support. At Cal and UCLA it looks like pre-med advising is handled by the generalists in the career center. They will talk to you about med school, right after talking to the kid before you about jobs in banking and the kid after you will be interested in a PhD in Art History. While their help is better than just guessing, you aren’t going to get the services of someone that really specializes in helping kids get into med school. The only one of the three listed that seems to have an actual pre-health advisor is UCSB,
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Exactly. The UC’s are not budgeting for premed advising. Probably no school does much for frosh/soph premeds since so many will weed out, but once “the survivors” have emerged, schools with premed advising should be helping develop appropriate app lists based on grades/MCAT.
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Second, "which school is the least difficult for stuff like OChem" misses the point. These classes are going to be difficult anywhere. There may be some more competition from the other excellent sophomores who are the ones typically taking this class at Cal or UCLA, but its not going to be a piece of cake at UCSB either.
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Absolutely. Those at UCSB who’ve survived a year of Bio and a year of Gen Chem, and are now taking OChem, will be the cream of the premed crop. So, the courses will not be easier. The profs will not be “dumbing them down” because these students are dolts. However, because of how UCLA. Cal, and UCSD seem to draw a higher concentration of the hardcore, superstars, my concern is if As/Bs are limited, it may be harder to get those A/Bs at those top three.