<p>With all due respect, there is nothing about the lifestyle and trappings of a pope that are in any way consistent with a vow of poverty. The fact that he will not actually “own” the exquisite, hand-tailored cassocks that are made to measure from sumptuous silks and handmade lace or the ermine-lined capes that will adorn his body, or that he will not actually “own” the lavish palaces stuffed with the world’s greatest treasures that he will live in, or the lavishly decorated throne that he will sit on, or the money to pay the legions of servants who will attend to him for the rest of his life DOES NOT mean that he will be living a life consistent with a vow of poverty. It is semantically untenable. </p>
<p>I don’t have anything against the trappings and regalia of the Vatican or the majestic presentation of the pope, but to say that it is consistent with a vow of poverty is mind-boggling to me.</p>
<p>I do not mean any offense by this comment. I just wonder if that would be the official Jesuit position on this question. it seems to me that a much more sensible explanation would be that, given that the office of pope traditionally has involved these trappings, and given the church’s view that it is worthwhile to maintain them, when answering the higher calling of the papacy, Pope Francis was spiritually released from the vow of poverty. That makes much more sense.</p>
<p>(i should mention that I’m not a practicing Catholic, although I grew up in the church.)</p>
<p>Whew! Thanks, cbreeze. He must function at full capacity then because no one achieves all he has by functioning at less than 100%. Must have been tough for a teenager to go through that. </p>
<p>Notelling, not sure what you expect him to do. Stay in some local 1 star hotel? Sell the Vatican? After living as he has lived for 76 years, poverty is more a view of life: nothing for his own benefit, everything for the flock. That is after all the real purpose of a vow of poverty.</p>
<p>Right. I’ve never understood why some people are so surprised when the Cardinals elect a new Pope and it turns out that he actually is a Catholic. What were they expecting?</p>
<p>Please give the man some time and see how he lives. I suspect that he will simplify things as much as he can in the circumstances. </p>
<p>I’m hopeful. I am not going to get into a discussion of theology here. However, one issue is what the Church focuses on. And, I think this pope will focus on social justice issues more than his immediate predecessors have…which I think is all to the good. He is not on SNAP’s list of the bottom 15, which is a big relief. (SNAP is a group for those who are survivors of sexual abuse by priests. They also had a list of the 3 people they would most like to see be pope, which, of course, didn’t happen. 1, the archbishop of Dublin, is not even a cardinal, and that was never going to happen. But avoiding the bottom 15 is at least a step in the right direction. ) </p>
<p>The Church is not going to change on what my favorite priest, now deceased, used to refer to as “pelvic theology”, but this is a cardinal who raked priests who refused to baptize the children of unwed mothers over the coals and told them in no uncertain terms they had no right to judge people. Sounds good to me. </p>
<p>I’m pleasantly surprised. Other than the fact he’s a bit older than I’d like, he seems like a good choice. Maybe adoptacardinal worked!</p>
<p>Oh, and there is at least one more Francis he may have named himself for–St. Francis de Sales. See, he’s already proving himself pretty savvy! All 3 of these saints appeal to different sorts of people within the Church.</p>
<p>You make a very good point, Coureur. I was raised a Catholic, went to Catholic schools and left the church a few years back. I am happy for those that are happy for this new beginning and I hope the optimism is realized. For me, those “certain issues” are at the core of my rejection of the church. I couldn’t build my life around them anymore and be content with myself. </p>
<p>I am glad for those that see this as hopeful. But some things won’t change because…well, he is Catholic and those issues, IMO, are never going to change.</p>
<p>No, not at all. The luxury trappings of the life of a pope are part of the job description. I would be horrified if he started selling off the Vatican’s treasures to conform to some personal vow. Or wear a plain black suit and collar and eat tuna sandwiches at the park, instead of fulfilling the role of the pope to awe the audience with the gradeur. That would obviously be a travesty. </p>
<p>I guess I would either expect him to acknowledge (not necessarily publicly) that he cant both maintain a vow of poverty and be pope. i think it is fine for him to conclude that the higher calling of the papacy released him from his earlier vow of poverty. If he can’t in good conscience conclude that is true, then I don’t think he would be in a position to accept the job. (I personally think his vow of poverty no longer applies, and that it was entirely proper for him to take the job). What would be untenable to me would be the insinuation or statement that he is still living within his vow of poverty because he doesnt actually own all the sumptuous luxuries that he will be living with.</p>
<p>I dont think he would say that. i just wondered if people knew what the official position was. Im not criticizing the pope (tho I disagree with all his positions on THE OTHER ISSUES); I just wondered how this was formally, officially reconciled.</p>
<p>I actually think that the fact that he is elderly is a good thing. It is the best hope we have for progressive policies in the future. I’m hoping he appoints a bunch of Jesuit cardinals who will be willing to allow open discussion. The next conclave could be much different.</p>
<p>^Perhaps I should shut up now, but I’ve always understood that to be one of the roles of the pope and St. Peters and the Raphaels and the Michaelangelos and the Mozart masses and the incense and all the rest. Even for non-believers, it’s pretty awe inspiring and does tend to evoke a very emotional response. Although I left the church for political reasons, I miss the Mass.</p>
<p>Didn’t do a thing for me. The Catholic Church tortured and murdered my ancestors for many, many centuries. And when they didn’t do so directly, they were happy to stand by and let others do their dirty work.</p>
<p>I do hope Francis is a good man (and I have little reason to believe otherwise) and I do hope he can get rid of the pedophiles, pay for the crimes of those harbored and protected by the last two popes, and that he can truly help the poor. And I do hope that Catholics find solace in his humility and sincerity. But the pomp of the ceremony itself is paid for with the blood of my ancestors, and those of many others, and is no cause of rejoicing for me.</p>
<p>With that said, I echo what mini said. I do truly hope he’s a good man who helps bring about reform of the culture of secrecy and cover-up that has plagued the Catholic church… and not through fault of the faithful IMO but through the fault of their so-called leaders.</p>
<p>ETA: I very nearly chose a Jesuit grad school. What attracted me so much was the social justice aspect that they proclaimed everywhere- and from talking to students it really does seem to be something they take to heart. I think a Jesuit will be good in this role. Half of my family on my dad’s side is Irish Catholic and many of the priests (I have many in the family) are Jesuit. I talked to my great aunt today who is a nun and she is very, very pleased with this choice (she is a Notre Dame nun so I have no idea what order). She severely disliked the last one.</p>
<p>In addition, many, many Catholics, including priests, nuns, and lay people paid with their lives to shield, hide, lie about Jews whom they befriended and heroically rescued.</p>
<p>Time to … start learning all of history, not just the parts that make you feel righteously qualified to criticize an entire people and religion.</p>
<p>Yes, I know about this history, thank you. There are people of good will everywhere, among every race, nationality, and creed. It’s wonderful when people defy their own leaders in the service of other human beings. They are the real saints, even when unknown. And I am glad when Catholics find solace in their religion, just as I am when Muslims find it in theirs, and atheists do in their lack of belief. </p>
<p>Doesn’t change the fact that the Catholic CHURCH tortured and murdered my ancestors (and those of many others) and built the CHURCH upon it. There’s not one jot of hyperbole there.</p>
<p>Mini, the US Catholic tax payers are sending sacks and sacks of money to help build Israel now, yet the US Catholic schools are closing for lack of money especially those in areas serving the poor.</p>