<p>
Whoa! Respectable jobs? What does THAT mean? You couldn’t have meant that as it sounds. Could you? Lots of folks doing honest labor out there, and I sure hope you are including them and are just off on your numbers.</p>
<p>I’d wager that in D’s high school (in Texas) of @550 ( and the vast majority are from two wage-earner families) there may be 10% or closer to fifty families that meet the six figure threshhold (if that).</p>
<p>I think that the OP’s original question is impossible to answer with one answer accurate for the entire U.S.</p>
<p>Cost of living and median salaries in each region vary so widely that the definition of “middle class” would have to be regional.</p>
<p>We have friends who recently relocated from Mass. to Illinois, near St.Louis. They purchased a lovely, mission style home for $108T, taxes about $3000/year.
Here is New Jersey, our home might be cosidered comparable and would probably sell for $500T, taxes about $8000/year.
We enjoy our paper house appreciation but will probably not be able to retire here due to the constantly escalating property taxes.</p>
<p>The income needed to support these “middle class” housing scenarios would be quite different.</p>
<p>There are also a number of those families where there is one teacher, nurse or fireman, and no spouse or a spouse that is working part-time or working at a job closer to minimum wage. In some rural towns the teachers are among the top wage earners…in most cities they are considerably down the list. So location and cost of living even within a state or county can impact who is middle class, poor or advantaged as could health factors or special needs.</p>
<p>I think this might be of use:</p>
<p><a href=“http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050830/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/census_poverty[/url]”>http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050830/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/census_poverty</a></p>
<p>Median household income nationwide is $44,000 (remember, that means half earn less). If you add $10k for a family of four, generally speaking you will be pretty close.</p>
<p>“Cost of living and median salaries in each region vary so widely that the definition of “middle class” would have to be regional.”</p>
<p>This is mostly a myth. Yes, household incomes for a family of four in New York City and Boston, etc. are higher, but by much less than most people seem to think (in NYC, it’s $62.5k). In San Francisco, it is much higher, but there are few four-person households, and in Oakland, it is actually lower than the national average, and there are MANY four-person households. National household income in California is roughly $10k higher than the national average - that’s a big difference if your income is $44k, but not a large statistical signficance if $100k.</p>
<p>Urban/rural differences are greater than regional ones. The big differences in the big cities are racial, which is why most white folks think that the middle class in their east coast city earn so much more than they actually do.</p>
<p>There was an episode of the SIMPSONS where the Simpson family is escaping from Alcatraz and Homer insists they swim to Oakland because he can’t afford San Francisco.</p>
<p>Mini - I respect your research a lot. Do you know what the average (median) income is for homeowners in these areas? Since many people consider the ability to own ones own home to be a middle class standard, it might be interesting.</p>
<p>No idea about median income of homeowners. In cities, generally speaking, fewer people own their homes. Much of this is a reflection of racial disparaties - nationally, 73% of white folks own homes, as opposed to 47% of African-Americans. The size of the gap is the same as it was in 1905. </p>
<p>Homeownership is a middle class standard because it is a fixed form of savings. In exchange for a small amount of interest, and a small risk of decline in value, middle class folks get a tax deduction, asset appreciation, and an asset that can be borrowed against, and inherited. </p>
<p>My suspicion is that, in places like San Francisco, as prices go up, home ownership mobility of those who have lived there a long time goes down. They may move, but away from SF (which, in turn, fuels growth in housing values in Oakland, Richmond, and South San Francisco/Daly City.)</p>
<p>Marite - yeah, I thought it was nonsense, too. That number ($350K net) was waaaayyy too high, even to be “upper” middle class. I think it must have been evidence of the subjective views of the people who did the financial report - that is, how they defined “nice”. I think our cars are nice, but they may think only BMW’s and up are nice. But even then, it’s too much.</p>
<p>But I have a couple of points: </p>
<p>1) if you’re trying to buy a house now in a commuter suburb for NYC, the price is a bigger % of income than it was 15 years ago, so the same house results in a bigger financial commitment; </p>
<p>2) I’ve said this before, but I’ll repeat it: a family of 4 with one male wage earner making $150,000 per year is in a better financial position that the same family with 2 wage earners making $75,000 each. There are just more stresses, strains and expenses (commuting costs, child care, etc.).</p>
<p>however when you are looking at college financial aid- you will be in a better position to have two wage earners
each income has a certain amount protected before it is judged to be available for tuition.
If one adult isn’t earning income- it seems that they consider that an additonal income is possible
also with two incomes you are likely to have two health plans which could overlap leaving much less for the family to have to pay than with one plan.
& just a thought- if you think that one wage earner is preferable, why did you specify it to be male?
I know several men who are stay at home dads who do a great job with their kids while their wife earns the big bucks- that doesn’t come in 2nd to me, to a man bearing the brunt of the financial responsiblity to the family</p>
<p>“Class” is a confusing word, because it isn’t really defined by income. When we say that a person has no class, we don’t mean they have no income. One way of looking at it is that it has more to do with manners, behavior, education, preferences, etc.</p>
<p>Hayden and EK:</p>
<p>NYC is in a class by itself. For the Boston-area, however, that figure is way too high. My house has more than doubled in price since the 1990s but our income has also increased substantially.
About health plans, my H and I qualify for family plan in our respective job. We signed up through mine, so there is no double expenses (his boss gave him a bit of a raise in lieu of the health insurance coverage).
You are right, Hayden, about the expenses of a two-income family, but I would take out the stress factor. It truly depends on each individual. I never regretted putting my kids in full-time daycare starting at 2.5 months, and never felt a twinge of guilt. If I did not work, I would drive everybody around the bend. I might even take to serious shopping! I believe there are tax benefits to having only one income-earner instead of two for the same income.</p>
<p>“Whoa! Respectable jobs? What does THAT mean? You couldn’t have meant that as it sounds. Could you? Lots of folks doing honest labor out there, and I sure hope you are including them and are just off on your numbers.”</p>
<p>I’m not sure how it “sounds” to you. I just meant a real job, as opposed to something you do for money while you’re waiting for your life to begin. </p>
<p>As to my numbers - like I said, I’m from California. I can’t say how things are in Texas.</p>
<p>““Class” is a confusing word, because it isn’t really defined by income. When we say that a person has no class, we don’t mean they have no income. One way of looking at it is that it has more to do with manners, behavior, education, preferences, etc.”</p>
<p>Class is not such a confusing word until one’s income begins to approach the upper middle class. The reason for that is most people below that “feel” (whether rightly or wrongly) that their choices are constricted. And the feel that way not because of their manners, behavior, or preferences, but because of their income.</p>
<p>Whether one SHOULD feel that way is another story. I always feel rich, but that’s because my frame of reference is landless laborers in south India. The only time I “feel” poor is when I look at list prices of private colleges and universities. But even that passes, as I know I’m not going to even consider paying it.</p>
<p>What about may favorite class, lower upper middle class?</p>
<p>My favorite: Upper Class Twit of the Year (John Cleese was the best).
<a href=“http://www.humorlinks.com/python/pictures/different/58.html[/url]”>http://www.humorlinks.com/python/pictures/different/58.html</a></p>
<p>Driver:</p>
<p>I think he qualifies for every year. S brought Fawlty Towers to camp.</p>
<p>Marite,
I’ve stayed several times in a really lovely place near Amboise, owned by a charming Brit couple named Newington. The first time I was there, I told the proprietor that he reminded me of Basil Fawlty. He gave me one of those disgusted John Cleese looks. I subsequently noted the Fawlty Towers books they had on the shelf in their little library, and have felt at home there ever since. Le Fleuray, Cangey 37530.</p>
<p>here’s a link to MEDIAN INCOME FOR 4-PERSON FAMILIES, BY STATE courtesy of the census bureau: </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html[/url]”>http://www.census.gov/hhes/income/4person.html</a></p>
<p>what I think would be really interesting is a similar listing adjusted by cost of living.</p>
<p>I am surprised they are as high as they appear. Thanks for the post and yes a cost of living adjustment would make sense. In some parts of this country a $200,000 house would mean you are flush while in many other parts of the country it won’t get you into a two bedroom condo.</p>
<p>“Whoa! Respectable jobs? What does THAT mean? You couldn’t have meant that as it sounds. Could you? Lots of folks doing honest labor out there, and I sure hope you are including them and are just off on your numbers.”</p>
<p>
Kluge, I gave you an opportunity to change your elitist tone (I wasn’t looking for a fight. I’m a lover not a fighter.;)) and you stomped on it. Gee, I guess my sister the twenty year waitress and my friend that is the church secretary and the man who delivers the propane and the fellow who …they just need to grow-up ,huh? That’s your answer? They need to just find a real job? Please look around and see what we have become as a nation. (Easier yet, just look at mini’s numbers.)</p>
<p>All of those people have respectable jobs. Maybe you California six figure folks need to look around some. These are the real jobs. Our national economy is tremendously more service oriented and lower paying than even twenty years ago. Many clients of mine have lost $20hr jobs at printing concerns, diaper factories, and contact lens manufacturers as their jobs are just not there anymore. They are driving delivery trucks, waitressing, and doing clerk type jobs. Respectable jobs . Real jobs . The people who were doing those jobs? They are pushed a rung lower, and are still doing honest labor. They are our working poor. Yes, even in California. If your purpose was to offend, you did so masterfully.</p>
<p>My brother in law- the one with the multiple grad school degrees has had a very spotty work history. He has gone from bank to bank as the auditor when they are bought up by someone else.
He has been the CFO in several companies… that have gone bankrupt. He remodeled his house to the style to which he wanted to become accustomed, but one week after their loan went through, the last company went bankrupt ( he had been taking stock instead of paychecks)
He looked for work- but didn’t want to consider anything that was lower than the top level of the company. He had an offer to become a car salesman at a friends dealership- but he recoiled in horror!
He is now selling ins- and vinyl siding while “borrowing” money from his brother in law to keep his family afloat.
Meanwhile- my H, who is a blue collar factory worker who he looks down upon, has never been without a job. Yes sometimes he mowed the grass and hauled stuff with his truck for a dollar- but we don’t borrow money to buy groceries- not while we are able to work for it.</p>