Who says Ivy kids are smartest?

College Search & Selection
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<p>
[quote]
sakky, I'm sure you're wise enough to understand that the exception doesn't comprise the rule, and that's hardly the point here. Your brother was brilliant enough for a merit scholarship, which top schools give to the best of the best. Now if someone at a socioeconomic disadvantage has to be in the best of the best just to get a shot at schools that normally just require you to be amongst the best, I don't see how that addresses the issue of inequity.

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<p>I fail to see how that's the case. Seems to me that the moral of the story is that you just need to work harder. My brother did. He worked hard, and look what it got him. Now, if you don't WANT to work hard, well, what can I tell you? </p>

<p>Now, is there an issue of inequity? Perhaps. But not so much that, as old-but-wise said, "ONLY the socioeconomically privileged few" can attend top boarding schools. My issue is with the word "only". You don't have the money? Then work hard to get a merit scholarship. If you don't want to work hard, then what can I tell you? </p>

<p>And besides, personally, I think this really has nothing to do with prep schools at all, but just has to do with wealth. What can I say - some people are just born extremely wealthy, and if you are, you probably don't even need to go to college at all. Like it or not, we live in a world where wealth has advantages. Hey, I'd like to have been born to a family of billionaires. Who wouldn't? But by the same token, I'd like to be 6'3'' tall, look like Brad Pitt, and be born with the athletic talent of Michael Jordan. I'd love all of that. None of that happened. </p>

<p>You bring up the issue of inequity, and my response is simple - life is unfair. Sure, it's not fair that some guys are more handsome than I am. Sure, it's not fair that some guys have more athletic ability than I am. By the same token, it's not fair that I was born with a sound mind and body whereas other people are sadly born with congenital birth defects and mental retardation. But what are you going to do about it? All you can do is work hard to maximize the potential that you were born with. And what my brother shows is that hard work will indeed get you places.</p>

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<p>Does "boringest" factor into this analysis of who is "smarter?"</p>

<p>So maybe these Miami-Dade students are better at chess than Ivy-leaguers, but so what? I would rather hang myself than play chess all day, and I can only imagine what these students who do it must be like.</p>

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<p>The Miami-Dade chess team is aggressively recruited. Six brilliant students do not make a school. I would be like saying UNC students are all great basketball players because the team is sweet.</p>

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<p><a href="sakky%20wrote:">quote</a>I'm simply using him as an example to knock down the assertion that "only the socioeconomically privileged few can afford" to attend top prep boarding schools.

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<p>Your example doesn't knock down anything; the word "only" was used in a statistical sense, not a deterministic one. Whatever the benefits of expensive private schools, they are experienced by a much higher proportion of the affluent than the non-affluent.</p>

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<p>Hehe this is cool. I have actually met the team because I live in Miami and they frequent the Miami International Chess Academy.</p>

<p>All of the team members are Cubans and I think thats why since Cuba is a powerhouse for chess players.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Your example doesn't knock down anything; the word "only" was used in a statistical sense, not a deterministic one. Whatever the benefits of expensive private schools, they are experienced by a much higher proportion of the affluent than the non-affluent.

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<p>Sure, because the wealthy enjoy a disproportionate amount of * all * benefits in life. Just like people who are born beautiful have advantages over people who are ugly. People who are tall and athletic have advantages over people who are short and fat. </p>

<p>Like it or not, life is not fair. That's life. Some people have advantages that others don't have. Should we bang our heads against the wall about it? At least in the case of prep schools, you can get in if you're not rich, if you're willing to work hard, like my brother did. But if you're born short, what are you going to do about it?</p>

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<p>In actuality, for at least the last thirty years and especially today, Ivies are the least expensive alternative, far cheaper than state schools or most other privates. Admission is needs blind (one's ability to pay does not enter into the admissions decision) and all financial need is met. At Harvard, for example, any student whose parents make $60,000 or less goes attends for free (no loans and free tuition, room and board, and often free books and travel to and from home to campus), and the other Ivies are close to this. A large majority of all students at Ivy schools is on financial aid. Anyone who says he or she, or his or her son or daughter, cannot attend an Ivy because a state school alternative is cheaper is either misinformed, or prevaricating.</p>

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<p>"Anyone who says he or she, or his or her son or daughter, cannot attend an Ivy because a state school alternative is cheaper is either misinformed, or prevaricating"
Not true...IMO
There are plenty middle/upper income folks who do not qualify for financial aid and don't have the ability to plop down 200k for an Ivy. In these cases, state schools are about half or one third the price. Imagine a UNC (instate) vs Cornell scenario for example. Each situation is very different - it doesn't help to make broad generalizations.</p>

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<p>I stand by my statement. Scenario: Mom and Dad make $75,000 a year. State U offers no aid and tuition, room and board costs $15,000. Ivy discounts its $50,000 annual cost to $5,200. No loans, no term time work. True story, current facts.</p>

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<p>Please read this re: Harvard financial aid. Princeton and Yale not far behind and others come close. No cost means no cost for books, no cost for travel, no cost for tuition, no cost for room and board. Of course, you have to get in but economic issues are not the concern some still would like to pretend they are.</p>

<p>"Harvard today (March 30) announced a significant expansion of its 2004 financial aid initiative for low- and middle-income families. Beginning with the class admitted this week, parents in families with incomes of less than $60,000 will no longer be expected to contribute to the cost of their children attending Harvard. In addition, Harvard will reduce the contributions of families with incomes between $60,000 and $80,000. </p>

<p>The new income thresholds build on the program announced two years ago, which provided that families with incomes below $40,000 would not be expected to contribute to the cost of education, with a reduced contribution for families with incomes between $40,000 and $60,000.</p>

<p>Two-thirds of Harvard students receive financial aid, and the average grant award for next year is expected to be more than $33,000, or 70 percent of the total cost of attendance. In the past decade, Harvard has reduced the median four-year debt for graduating seniors from more than $16,000 to $6,400 - less than one-third of the national average of $20,000." </p>

<p><a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-finaid.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/daily/2006/03/30-finaid.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>The 3 smartest men I have ever met graduated from:</p>

<ol>
<li>Texas A&M</li>
<li>Cal State Long Beach</li>
<li>Harvard ug, Oxford ma, Harvard law.</li>
</ol>

<p>They are not THE smartest but many are very much amoungst the smartest.
Telling if someone is smart or not soley on what college they got into is bogus anyway. The girl in our class who get's the highest grades in our year is a dumb as dirt. She just studies very hard and has a good memory.</p>

<p>This is a good example that where you got/are getting your undergrad degree from doesn't make you any more or less smart.</p>

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<p>The smartest kid i know did not go to college and instead opened a little computer shop a few blocks from his home and now is racking in 200-300k per year..good for him.</p>

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<p>btw....he is only 20 right now so... :( for me</p>

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<p>redcrimblue - I stand by my facts too. It depends on the situation - generalizations are useless. The financial aid story changes when you get to 100-125K or more. Read: No aid dollars. Probably sounds like LOTS of money - but remember - schools don't take into account geographic location. And if you're living near NYC or many other large cities - the cost of living is astronomical. I'm not talking about parents who tool around in luxury cars and live in big box mansions. A tiny old cape cod can cost in excess of a half-million in these parts. So yes, it IS hard to handle a 200k Ivy bill, especially with multiple kids. And yes, the state school is a lot cheaper. Many kids are forced to choose SUNY Albany, Buffalo or Bing or go into big debt - even those that have parents that make good money. I'd say it's the poor/ lower middle class and the rich who have the best choices. Making 100K in NYC - NOT rich.</p>

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<p>^^^ Meh... Not exactly... Based on my observation, ivies, in recent years, give out merit money to students from many middle class or upper middle class in the form of ?financial aid?. This somehow has changed the landscape of ivies - Many kids who would have taken free-rides from state or not-so-hot private schools, now attend Ivies without incurring too much financial burden on their family.</p>

<p>1) A girl in our neighborhood @Princeton (the most generous ivy)
Location: Bethesda, MD (DC metro)
Total income: 125K+ (this is not exactly considered as high income around here)
Home Price: 750K+ (Princeton does not count Home Equity)
Number of Family: 4
Parent's Out of Pocket Expense: 15K (her family said they could swing this without too much pain)
Student Debt: 0
A great finaid package for middle/upper-middle class family</p>

<p>2) A girl who will graduate from Cornell- Hotel management this year
Location: Columbia, MD
Number of family: 4 (other kid @Stanford)
Parent?s Out of Pocket Expense: 0 for 4 years
Student Debt: about 20K for 4 years
This is basically 20K for a Cornell education-what a bargain!!!</p>

<p>SO basically, if you're smart & willing, you can go to Ivies, whether your are dirt poor, filthy rich or somewhere inbetween!!!</p>

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<p>The real question is what is the defintion of smart. Bobby Fischer was an absolute genius at chess, but overall an idiot.</p>

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<p>ok, well I know someone in a suburb of NYC who got NOTHING from an Ivy (not Princeton). Parents make around 150K (not much in this area). Kid chose SUNY Binghamton - full ride. Otherwise, would have to take over 80K in loans.
I DO agree that the landscape is changing though. It's a joke that Ivies don't give merit aid. They don't like losing kids to Vanderbilt, Duke and state honors programs so they felt they needed to do something. It's not across the board though from what I have seen. In any case, my definition of filthy rich doesn't include those who make 150- 200K in a major metro area (although that's certainly comfortable). Cost of housing and high taxes can eat away at that income pretty fast - especially for larger families. It's all relative...</p>

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<p>I fail to see why we cannot generalize this whole discussion into the fact that both a nurturing environment and genetics affect "smartness".</p>

<p>also the world is not fair</p>

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<p>generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations, generalizations</p>

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<p><a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/102699/top-colleges-get-more-affordable%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/102699/top-colleges-get-more-affordable&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Yes, this is what I was talking about... Let schools compete for you...while you sitting pretty, looking good while sipping cool latte. & don't forget to ask for more $$$ (read: negotia... err... politely ask them to review your aid package ;)</p>