Who says Ivy kids are smartest?

tennisjump · March 25, 2007, 1:04am

<a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070322/ap_on_re_us/chess_final_four%5B/url%5D">http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070322/ap_on_re_us/chess_final_four</a>

By SARAH LARIMER, Associated Press Writer Thu Mar 22, 7:33 AM ET

MIAMI - Don't underestimate the grocery store deli worker, the security alarm salesman or the 34-year-old computer science student who anchor the Miami Dade College chess team. The community college undergrads have already faced Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, Northwestern and beaten them all.
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By finishing fourth in that Pan American Intercollegiate Chess Tournament, Miami Dade qualified for this weekend's finals of collegiate chess, facing powerhouses University of Texas-Dallas, Duke University and the University of Maryland, Baltimore County.

"They're formidable players," said Jim Stallings, University of Texas-Dallas' director for chess and education. "You can't just take anybody for granted in this tournament, because they are the top four U.S. teams."

Miami Dade, with 160,000 students, may have few admission requirements, but it has made the
Final Four five consecutive years. It is seeking its first title, after finishing third in each previous try.

Five years ago, no one was watching the Miami Dade team, mainly because it didn't exist.

Professor Rene Garcia says a group of students wandered into his office, said they had formed a team and informed him he was their new adviser.

"Not only was it a surprise to me that apparently we had a team, but their performance in the tournament was remarkable," said Garcia, who teaches statistics and psychology at the college.

Garcia begged the college for uniforms ? first T-shirts, now blazers ? so players didn't have to compete in their flip-flops and unmatching shirts. The team had to tell him to keep his emotions in check during competitions because he was just too excited.

"I think the one advantage that we've had is that these are players who have a real love for the game and they've played since they were very little," Garcia said.

Renier Gonzalez, a former Cuban national player and the current Miami Dade captain, said the four-person team has earned its opponents' respect with tough play and a fierce competitive spirit.

"We always tried hard. Even those matches that we lost, we fought hard. We had a good team," said Gonzalez, the computer science student. "Sometimes they respect you because of the attitude you put in the game, not only because of what you are able to do. And that's what we did since the beginning."

Liula Cardona ? who also used to play for Cuba's national team and now works in a grocery deli ? said she aggressively approaches each game with a team mentality.

"I always think of the team, first of the team," Cardona said. "When I play with the team, I always play first for the team then for me."

Of course, Miami Dade has had its share of setbacks. Maryland-Baltimore County lured one of its best players away with the promise of a scholarship. Several players have to fit in practice between English lessons, family obligations, jobs and classes. The team can't afford to compete in more than three tournaments a year. And its recruiting efforts are lackluster, at best.

"We try to answer the phone, in case anybody calls," Garcia said.

Still, the U.S. Chess Federation dubbed Miami Dade College the Chess College of the Year in 2004, beating out 120 schools jockeying for the distinction. This year, in another honor, the college will host the Pan American Intercollegiate Chess Tournament.

Texas-Dallas and Maryland-Baltimore County have dominated the tournament, but Garcia said this year could be different. Duke looks tougher, he said, and though his team is no longer easily dismissed, its players still feed off their underdog status.

"It's almost like, 'Yeah, go ahead. Underestimate me," he said. "Maybe I'll give you a lesson down the line."

fuzzylogic · March 25, 2007, 1:18am

Yawn...:rolleyes:

jags861 · March 25, 2007, 2:04am

having a good chess team is no different than having a good basketball team or having a good football team. schools recruit for everything. you don't think trinity college in connecticut is the 8 years in a row national champion squash (undefeated, mind you) team by luck, do ya?

on a completely separate note, i believe ive read in several places there are only 3 things which people can apparantly be geniuses/prodigies in--math, chess, and music. chess and music are rooted in math. I think thats pretty cool.

Shrivats · March 25, 2007, 2:07am

Actually nobody ever says that Ivy kids are the smartest really. :p (At least not on this forum, they know they'll be jumped at :))

kyledavid80 · March 25, 2007, 2:18am

It's implied by many, sadly.

wired_LAIN · March 25, 2007, 3:43am

I think its fair to say that they're smart, or at the least hard working. I dunno about smartest... most of the people I know at MIT are smarter than those I know at HYP

Hi-Power · March 25, 2007, 4:04am

I don't think so, jags. I've met some people that have a strong math background but weren't so smart with everything else in life. Besides, music is too subjective as a subject.

BIGTWIX · March 25, 2007, 5:16am

i would not say smartest
definately some of the best well rounded but not smartest.

ide say alot of the "smartest" kids go to tech schools like mit and cit, top pubs like ucla,cal,umich,mcgill,u of toronto, u south carolinam u if virginia

and others go to highly intellectual schools like u of chicago, or reed,
where people go to learn rather than just get grades.

I always here people talking about how an A at Berkeley or UCLA is harder than an A at Ivy's

old_but_wise · March 25, 2007, 12:05pm

tennisjump: I love your OP. Unfortunately, few of the Ivy-obsessed people on CC would be willing to admit that there are some kids at the community college who are smarter than some kids at Ivies. Of course, the vast majority of Ivy students are academically superior to the vast majority of community college students. But, there are some community college students who are brighter and more talented than some Ivy students.

Ivy students are not the smartest. Intellectually and extracurricular-wise, they are absolutely no different than the very intelligent and well-rounded students who are at less prestigious colleges. What sets them apart is the fact that the majority of Ivy students have had the socioeconmic advantages in life that many non-Ivy students have not had. For example: 30-40% of students at all Ivies graduated from a small group of elite private high schools, ones that most non-Ivy students could not afford to go to. Also, they could afford to hire college strategists, take expensive SAT prep courses, and spend their summers doing something (like going to Mexico to work with artists) to boost their extracurricular resume, while the equally bright and talented student from the public school could not afford to do those things.

Bottom line: There are exceptionally bright and talented students at every college in the US, but the privileged few cluster at the handful of colleges that favor them (Ivies).

Xeneise · March 25, 2007, 12:08pm

old but wise: there are some economically disadvantaged students at ivies, as well as some middle class kids. That statement is an overgeneralization.

MomofWildChild · March 25, 2007, 12:20pm

old but wise- just go ahead and spit out those sour grapes. You'll feel much better. (I have reviewed your post history before making that comment)

old_but_wise · March 25, 2007, 12:50pm

I acknowledged that there are some poor and middle class students at the Ivies. But, my point is that 30-40 percent of each incoming freshman class comes from a small group of very expensive and elite high schools that only the socioeconomically privileged few can afford.

Momofwildchild.....Sour grapes....what's that all about?

sakky · March 25, 2007, 1:07pm

[quote]
But, my point is that 30-40 percent of each incoming freshman class comes from a small group of very expensive and elite high schools that only the socioeconomically privileged few can afford.

[/quote]

I'll put it to you this way. My brother went to one of those elite prep schools. But he did so on a * full merit scholarship*. Then he went to Caltech on a full merit scholarship + stipend. Now he's at Stanford on full doctoral fellowship. He's never paid a dime in his life for any of his education. On the contrary - he's always * gotten paid * to go to school.

But the point is, who's to say that "only" the socioeconomically privileged few can go to these schools? My family certainly isn't privileged. Can't afford it? Get a full scholarship from them. My brother did. Either that, or acknowledge that you're just, frankly, not good enough to get one of those scholarships. He worked hard to get those scholarships. If you're just not willing to work as hard as he did, hey, what can I tell you?

kazz · March 25, 2007, 1:14pm

Umm, sakky, surely we can agree that your brother is an utmost exception, and bears nothing in resemblance to the rule.

and what exactly "isn't privileged?"

i'd be willing to bet your conception is vastly different than say, old but wise's, or my own perhaps.

MattEisn · March 25, 2007, 1:25pm

i dont really think that makes them any smarter....

kazz · March 25, 2007, 1:25pm

btw, what exactly made your brother stand out SO much that he got PAID to attend Caltech?

sakky · March 25, 2007, 1:49pm

[quote]
Umm, sakky, surely we can agree that your brother is an utmost exception, and bears nothing in resemblance to the rule.

[/quote]

I'm simply using him as an example to knock down the assertion that "only the socioeconomically privileged few can afford" to attend top prep boarding schools. My family isn't privileged. Without getting too much into my family's history, suffice it to say that my father's first real full-time job paid him less than $15,000 a year. Granted, this was during the early 1980's, so you can do the use an inflation calculator to figure out what that means in today's money. But does that sound privileged to you? Moreover, both my father's and mother's parents were absolutely dirt poor who would provide no inheritance - heck, my parents had to support THEM. And my mother has spent most of her adult life as a housewife. How privileged does that sound to you?

nuveen · March 25, 2007, 1:53pm

sakky, I'm sure you're wise enough to understand that the exception doesn't comprise the rule, and that's hardly the point here. Your brother was brilliant enough for a merit scholarship, which top schools give to the best of the best. Now if someone at a socioeconomic disadvantage has to be in the best of the best just to get a shot at schools that normally just require you to be amongst the best, I don't see how that addresses the issue of inequity.

sakky · March 25, 2007, 1:54pm

[quote]
btw, what exactly made your brother stand out SO much that he got PAID to attend Caltech?

[/quote]

He graduated as valedictorian at his prep boarding school, with extensive national awards for mathematics and science (can't remember which ones). Furthermore, he was a key participant in award-winning school chorus and acting troupes. He was also an active athlete.

The point is, he's had numerous impressive accomplishments. And he did it without coming from a background that would be considered 'privileged' by any reasonable standards. He just worked extremely hard. I suppose one thing that might be considered 'privileged' in my family is that education and hard work has always been deeply stressed. But I don't think that's the kind of 'privilege' that old-but-wise is talking about, because it just begs the question of why can't other parents stress education and hard work to their kids?

So the point stands. My brother was able to get a full ride at a top boarding school because of his hard work and academic achievement. That means other people can do it too.

wired_LAIN · March 25, 2007, 2:04pm

[quote]

Ivy students are not the smartest. Intellectually and extracurricular-wise, they are absolutely no different than the very intelligent and well-rounded students who are at less prestigious colleges. What sets them apart is the fact that the majority of Ivy students have had the socioeconmic advantages in life that many non-Ivy students have not had. For example: 30-40% of students at all Ivies graduated from a small group of elite private high schools, ones that most non-Ivy students could not afford to go to. Also, they could afford to hire college strategists, take expensive SAT prep courses, and spend their summers doing something (like going to Mexico to work with artists) to boost their extracurricular resume, while the equally bright and talented student from the public school could not afford to do those things.

[/quote]

I go to one of those "elite private schools" (I'm on financial aid; my parents fit into the upper-middle class bracket (~70,000 yearly salary))

I can tell you that the kids who go to the Ivy leagues (which is about the top 10%) are most definitely smarter than the average high school student. The coursework is much more challenging than most public high schools; I've known kids who've gotten straight A's without any effort at public schools get B's and C's at our school. And as far as I know, none of my friends who've scored 2300 or higher on the SATs have taken any special prep classes.

Also, from my experience it tends to be the middle class/ upper middle class kids who do the best at my school... I think there's more pressure on them to do well since its a greater investment for their families. The kids who've gotten in because they're rich aren't usually in the top 10%. I think that if you took your "30-40%" and broke it down, you'd realize that the majority of those kids come from the middle class, not the socially elite.

Who says Ivy kids are smartest?

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