<p>Bloubayou–you are simply wrong and don’t use your three friends as proof of anything. UM OOS is about the same as UCB instate.</p>
<p>POIH, do you have any notion of the idea of CHOICE and what a person LIKES? And that not everyone is interested in the Ivies, or Cal, or Caltech?</p>
<p>And to not think about the variety of schools, and what students are attracted to them is missing a huge part of the college process</p>
<p>I am surprised by the number of people heralding U-M’s merit aid for out-of-state students. I thought the number of merit awards granted was rather paltry (although I’d be happy to be wrong!)</p>
<p>barrons or anyone,
Do you know the OOS admit rates for U Michigan and/or the IS admit rates for UCB? Or are these comments your view about the relative difficulty of admittance at these schools?</p>
<p>I don’t know for sure, but I would suspect OOS admissions at Michigan is harder than in-state at Berkeley. I’ve heard it is as hard as a lower tier ivy for OOS.</p>
<p>I think the difficulty of getting into U Michigan from OOS is one of those mythical ideas that gets tossed around by the U Michigan supporters to create an illusion of Ivy status. If you look at the numbers, it is hard to see how that claim has any justification. </p>
<p>From the latest version of USNWR, U Michigan’s overall acceptance rate was 57%. By contrast, UC Berkeley’s overall acceptance rate was 27%. Acceptance rates at lower tier Ivies were:</p>
<p>Dartmouth 17%
Columbia 13%
U Penn 21%
Brown 15%
Cornell 27%</p>
<p>Taking numbers from the most recent CDS of U Michigan, there were 23,882 applicants. 13,610 were accepted (57%) and 6082 students enrolled (45% yield), or 4075 IS and 2007 OOS. I believe that approximately 10000 students applied from IS and 14000 applied from OOS. Using admit rates of 66% for IS and 50% for OOS and yields of 62% for IS and 29% for OOS, you arrive almost exactly at the entering class size for U Michigan. </p>
<p>Maybe I’ve done the math wrong or have made poor assumptions (but I don’t think so and I’m sure the U Michigan fans will respond if they can refute this), but based on these numbers, I think one can conclude that U Michigan OOS is nowhere near as difficult as the lower Ivies and likely much easier than IS is for UC Berkeley. </p>
<p>Note: In the latest year, all of the colleges had lower acceptance rates, including U Michigan (which fell to 47% overall).</p>
<p>barrons:</p>
<p>actually, not using my acquaintances, I’m basing my assertion on the past three years of applications in our city (five public, competitive high schools, each graduating 500+ per class). A counselor at one of the high schools even recommends UMich for kids he thinks are borderline for Cal.</p>
<p>Cal’s admission rate was 20% for OOS apps (vs. 25% in-state) for the class of 2010 (889/4446), but, of course, the admission rate is not of much value without the gpa + test scores of the OOS apps. </p>
<p>Any Old Blues from Ann Arbor have UMich’s numbers?</p>
<p>according to hawkette, at UMich there are 14,000 OOS applications and 2,000 OOS admits. That is a 1/7 admit rate, or 14%.</p>
<p>That is lower than almost all of the ivies hawkette has listed.
Dartmouth 17%
Columbia 13%
U Penn 21%
Brown 15%
Cornell 27%</p>
<p>Now, no one is saying that Umich is more selective than UCB…I would expect out of state admissions rates to be even lower for UCB.</p>
<p>POIH-- sometimes you just get a “feeling” about a school and you know that it’s the right choice for you. this typically happens when you visit the campus. these feelings are the basis for many college choices. i do see your point about “why go to a more expensive school further away if it isn’t necessarily a better education?”. i understand where you’re coming from. but you’re leaving out those feelings that make students fall in love with their colleges.</p>
<p>also, i agree with what someone said earlier about pre-med. if you’re really trying to put your daughter ahead, she should not major in a rigorous subject like comp sci at a good school. med school admission is largely based on GPA, and not so much what your major was or what college you’re coming from.</p>
<p>collegealum,</p>
<p>NO, NO, NO </p>
<p>You are looking at enrolled numbers versus applications. The OOS numbers that I posted were for a 50% OOS acceptance rate which is a far cry from the Ivies and UC Berkeley. U Michigan is a very big school (only school larger in top 40 is U Wisconsin) and it is NOT difficult to gain admission, IS or OOS.</p>
<p>U Michigan Admission details from latest CDS:</p>
<p>Applications: 23,882
Estimated at 10,000 in-state and 14,000 out-of-state</p>
<p>Acceptances: 13,610 (57%)
Estimated at 66% in-state and 50% out-of-state</p>
<p>Actual enrollments:
Total: 6082 IS: 4075 OOS: 2007
Estimated yields of 62% in-state and 29% out-of-state</p>
<p>whoops, you’re right assuming that your numbers are correct.</p>
<p>I have a hard time believing that IS and OOS admissions rates are that close, though.</p>
<p>Following Hawkette’s math logic, but from a different angle: </p>
<p>UMich frosh class is 36% OOS (USNews online), or 2,200 students. If we assume a 20% admission rate (per Barron), it means that the Uni received 11,000 applicants from OOS to fill those 2,2000 slots, or nearly half its total of 23,882. But, that 11,000 only makes sense if the OOS yield is 100%, which is obviously is incorrect since Harvard’s yield is only 70%. If we assume a yield is 40% for OOS, then the 27,500 applicants from OOS would exceed Michigans total applicant pool, both IS and OOS. </p>
<p>(27,500 apps * 20% acceptance rate * 40% yield = 2,200 matriculants)</p>
<p>If we assume a 50% acceptance rate OOS apps, and 40% yield, then the OOS apps would total (a more reasonable) 11,000.</p>
<p>So, unless the yield is extremely high, on per % acceptances, UMich HAS to be easier for OOS applicants than Cal.</p>
<p>The admit rate for UM dropped to 47% last year and will drop again this year as apps have increased much faster than expected and yield has gone up. At least get up to date numbers. US News is from 2005. And when I define easier it is based on the enrolled stats–not how many apply. The UC’s all get tons of apps from inferior students because all you do is check a box to apply to each school. Maybe some UCR level kids think they just might get lucky. Do some computing on the average SAT scores and UW gpa and we can talk. UM does not post the accept rates by location but you can assume most OOS students submit the SAT and most instate take the ACT.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.admissions.umich.edu/fastfacts.html[/url]”>http://www.admissions.umich.edu/fastfacts.html</a></p>
<p>barrons,
You are right. The numbers do improve for U Michigan in the latest year. They also improve for all of the schools that we are discussing. I believe that it is appropriate to compare apples to apples (same years) so when the new numbers come out for the other schools (lower Ivies and UC Berkeley), we should rerun this. I would expect U Michigan to narrow the gap a little, but that also depends on how much lower the others go. Their difficulty, of course, is that the acceptance rate at their schools can’t go much lower. Despite this, it will be a stretch for U Michigan’s OOS acceptance rate to reach the levels of these other schools, including IS for UC Berkeley.</p>
<p>Most schools have the numbers out on their sites. You can see UCB here.</p>
<p>.
<a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp[/url]”>http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp</a></p>
<p>Average SAT I scores (middle 50%) Reading: 580-710
Math: 620-740
Writing: 590-710</p>
<p>Average unweighted GPA 3.83</p>
<p>And UM</p>
<p>SAT Total of 1900–2160
SAT Critical Reading 610–720
SAT Math 650–760
SAT SAT Writing 610–720
Unweighted high school GPA of 3.7–4.0
28% with a 4.0 GPA
52% with 3.9 or higher GPA</p>
<p>Looks like UM wins by an nose.</p>
<p>collegealum,
I played with the numbers a little and I agree that the IS and OOS numbers seem a little close. But the accept rate for IS would need to go up to pretty high levels in order to get the OOS level much lower, eg 40%.</p>
<p>barrons,
The data for U Michigan that you posted is for accepted students, not enrolled students. Here is the correct link:</p>
<p><a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;
<p>POIH,</p>
<p>Your consistent use of words such as “better” when comparing schools continues to show that you have completely ignored everything people have said over the past fourteen pages of writing. Words such as this emphasize your reliance on presige as the only reason to choose a school, as does your capitalization of a “Harvard Education” (as if an Education from their is some kind of god or something to be revered). So here’s what you seriously need to do.</p>
<ol>
<li> Stop.</li>
<li> Put aside your list of colleges. Put it out of sight and out of mind.</li>
<li> Talk to your daughter. Have a discussion about what exactly she is looking for in a college. Since you have indicated that she is interested in computer science, that’s a good start. Now you need to examine things such as urban vs. rural, north vs. south, large vs. small, LAC vs. university, things like that. See what SHE wants, not what you want.</li>
<li> Take a look at schools that match her expectations. Don’t even open up the US News World Report book. Burn it, for all I care.</li>
<li> Once you have found schools that match every one of her requirements for type of school, visit some of those schools. There shouldn’t be more than 15 of them, and they may be in the same geographic area to make things easier if that is one of her requirements (location).</li>
<li> Apply to no more than 10 of these schools, again without many regards to prestige (making sure to have reaches, matches, and safeties).</li>
<li> Consider the schools she is accepted to and decide from there.</li>
</ol>
<p>Your main problem, again, is that you are blinded by prestige. ParentOfIvyHope, indeed. The mere fact that a school is part of an athletic association makes you want your daughter to go there. You have such a wide variety of schools on your list that you aren’t even considering the atmosphere of the school and why one might like it. So IGNORE THE PRESTIGE, and IGNORE THE USN&WR!!!</p>
<p>Why do I get the feeling that what I just said will go in one ear (or eye, I guess) and out the other?</p>
<p>Hawkette: The OP talked about daughter perhaps going into engineering. The fact remains that among anybody who knows anthing about engineering UM is one of the top schools. Why would someone go there than Bekkrely? Well, I know some thing about the programs and the diffculty now and in the future of getting through in four years in engineering. Also, once one applies and ihas a major in engineering switching is difficult. A Berkeley prof actually told me that UM is more undergrad friendly in Engineering. My S and others actually liked Ann Arbor better (go figure). </p>
<p>As far as scholarships. Here is something interesting. UIUC has about the same number of undegrads in engeineering as UM and gives aout about $750,000 annually in merit money. They limit the amount to OOS substantially(both in the engineering school as the university) and the state of Illinois turned down the university request to increase OOS enrollment which now stands at 11%. UM gives out $5 million in engineering merit per year. They have specific scholarships too for OOS and large ones for students from underrepresented states. The university goes after a national pool. UCB if I am correct is down to about 6% OOS. The merit money for them is tough to get and small I believe for in state. The OP brouht up UT(I thnk about 8% OOS). Well there OOS national merit gets in state tuition and then there are several merit scholarships too. Now UT is good but uually not seen as good in engineering as UCB or UM and UIUC. Also UCB is about the same size as UM which are both about 7 K smaller than UIUC which is several K smaller than UT. Austin is a great college town though.</p>
<p>If engineering is the interest UCB,UM, GT,UIUC, MIT,Caltech,Stanford, CMU are the other top ones or try Olin, Mudd or Rose- I’d look at all those before the Ivy schools…but as all have said one needs to look at fit,cost etc. If she likes UCB and can get in why even apply to any other big schools. And if she does not want big scratch it and many of the state schools, in Cali or out, off the list</p>
<p>By the way UM has a large number of highly ranked departments, not as good as UCB but good enough that if it is a good fit , I wouldn’t think twice about any ranking differences, as any in the top 25 or so are going to be great and the resulting educational outcome will depend more on the student than the school. IMHO</p>
<p>Whoops, that was my bad. Very busy today so I was too fast for my own good. So UCB by a nose but when you figure OOS being tougher at UM, I think it’s too close to call.</p>