<p>It seems like the general attitude at CC is that a school has to a) be in top 25 or so LACs/Universities and/or b) have less than 7,000 students to be worth considering. Sure, schools that don’t meet a or b <em>might</em> be okay if 1) they are your last-ditch financial safety (a state school, if you don’t get enough merit money at any smaller schools), 2) you have an average/below average student (more so, if you wouldn’t be full pay or qualify for enough merit aid at a smaller school), or 3) a sport-crazed student. In general, however, it seems like CC shuts down choices like a and b for “above average” students, except as last ditch safeties. Why the attitude that “smart” kids can’t thrive at non-LACs? I understand the many benefits of LAC education for some students, and even why one might be edgy about attending a school the size of UMich, UCB, or UT-Austin, but I’m perplexed by the nearly automatic dismissal of non-top 25 schools with more than 7.000 students, especially for “above average” applicants. Do you think that your kid will get “lost” academically or socially? That they won’t get any interaction with professors? Something else?</p>
<p>It’s the culture of this board, psych, I wouldn’t make any more of it than that. I have one kid at Amherst --a very highly “ranked” LAC. I have another kid with higher test scores and a higher GPA at our large flagship state u honors college. The second kid is working harder than the first at the moment. It may have something to do with the selection of classes this term, but second kid’s work load and the level of achievement required is actually higher. In the long run, I am certain one is not going to get a better education than the other.</p>
<p>Second kid was not interested in small schools, and not in elite schools either. This kid has a need to be in a bigger world with all the kooky, stimulating diversity of people that comes with it. It’s great. Both kids are in a place that suits them, and both are having a very significant experience as well as a lot of fun.</p>
<p>Psych, I got that feeling when I first came to CC too…what I learned is that we all have to be vocal on here - whether you’re in a top school (by someones’s standard) or not…the more we are all vocal, the more all schools can be represented here.</p>
<p>Disclaimer - my son is not a HS senior yet, so my attitude may change if he “matures” by then </p>
<p>For our family </p>
<p>S1 is high IQ, ADD and easily daydreams if not fully engaged.</p>
<p>Smaller class sizes at “top” schools = forced to show up to class & actively participate = Mom & Dad feeling the $$ are worth the education.</p>
<p>Also, said Son doesn’t belive TAs are worth the price & assumes all large U undergrad is taught by TAs. With the overwhelming choice of schools I’m not even going to try & fight him on this too much.</p>
<p>Albeit The Rule in our house – all 2 of my kids MUST apply to at least one state U as a financial safety. Also must visit 3 state U minimum rather than just applying haphazzard to one.</p>
<p>My D is a sophomore at her large state u. (She went to a smaller regional state u last year and transferred to the flagship state u this year.) Last year at the smaller school every class taught by professor (no TAs). </p>
<p>This year her honors college classes are also all taught by professors, all are under 25 students (that’s the limit they allow). She has two lower division classes that are in her major department that are large. They are 2 and 3-day a week lectures by the professor (well, one is actually a weekly movie screening - film history class), with one 1-hour discussion group led by a TA. So her contact with TAs is very minimal. After this year it will be non-existant.</p>
<p>I’m only saying this, because sometimes this TAs-doing-the-teaching thing can be wildly overblown. It really depends on the school and on the department or program within the school. I mean, if your kid just won’t hear that, then he won’t, but his assumptions may be inaccurate.</p>
<p>By the way, my other kid has had large lecture classes at his very small private LAC too.</p>
<p>I understand that the TA aspect is not legit. For us, at this stage it isn’t worth the argument. As school choice is narrowed & school visits include sitting in on classes I hope S1 will see the light on his own.</p>
<p>IMO – A TA can be very engaging. </p>
<p>But to answer OP, S1 has a negative attitude due to TAs – Doesn’t matter that this is a “perceived” notion.</p>
<p>son is at large state flagship U in the honors college. He was a top student in hs and LIKED big schools. A few of his classes HAVE been big but he has had mostly small to medium classes. Most of his classes are taught by full professors. He is doing his thesis this year (his final year) and is closely working with a top professor. He is also a paid (UG) teaching asst…and certainly does not teach classes. The class is taught by a full professor. He answers student questions, helps with labs and simulations, and grades tests. He’s lucky to have this experience and yet another close relationship with a professor.<br>
For us, this VERY big, non top-25 school has worked well. It might not be a match for everyone.</p>
<p>psych…you do get that feeling in general but it’s not everyone. S1,a strong student, only applied to large state u’s(none that are considered top publics on CC). He graduated with honors in May and had a great four years. He would not change a thing if he had it to do over. His choice had nothing to do with finances. </p>
<p>notnim: S2,a soph, attends a directional state u. So far, out of all classes taken, he has only had one grad. student for a teacher. That was in a one hr. Bio. lab which is pretty common. You may be surprised at what you find when you start looking.</p>
<p>When you are paying $55K a year for a school, you really want some personal attention, I would think. Some of the schools we saw at that size had huge classes, particularly for intro courses which is what most kids take the first couple of years. For the $20K that our state schools charge, I can see why they cram 300 kids in for Western Civ. But when I see some LACS that have a great prof teaching the same danged material with just 15-20 kids in the class, I think that I would prefer that for the same cost. And yes, I have seen this directly. </p>
<p>I have a non math kid who took three terms of calc and aced it with 15 in a class, whereas in some schools these intro calc courses were taught in lecture halls with non English speaking grad student who were resentfully assigned to small group recititions, and it was a tough go with a high drop and flunk rate. For $50K+, I expect more.</p>
<p>I think there’s a feeling that large universities (maybe including those in the top 25) are impersonal bureaucratic degree factories where nobody will ever know the student’s name.</p>
<p>But this is not necessarily the experience of students at those universities.</p>
<p>My son graduated from our massive flagship state university and didn’t find it impersonal at all. As a freshman and sophomore, he was part of a special-interest program that made the huge campus seem smaller. As a junior and senior, he was involved in undergraduate research (his department made it easy for students to find research opportunities). Because of this, he had two advisors who knew him personally and interacted with him on at least a weekly basis. I doubt he could have had a more personalized experience at an LAC. And throughout his time there, he had no trouble with the university bureaucracy. When unusual situations arose (for example, he was sick during final exams one semester and had to reschedule two of those exams), they were handled pleasantly and efficiently. He had nothing to complain about.</p>
<p>I have become a fan of our flagship state university, the University of Maryland at College Park, and have recommended it to many people on these boards.</p>
<p>toneranger, my D is too young and green to be a teaching assistant, but at her flagship state u honors college she has already landed a paid position as a research assistant to a full professor. My son at his elite private LAC hasn’t had an opportunity like that… yet. I hope he does, though, because his sister is finding it enormously interesting!</p>
<p>Notnim…>>> Also, said Son doesn’t belive TAs are worth the price & assumes all large U undergrad is taught by TAs.
<<<</p>
<p>I think that used to be more commonplace than it is now. When we were doing campus visits, none of the big schools used TAs to teach classes. My son was a TA last year at our flagship…his job was to proctor tests, grade tests & homework, take attendance, help students during lab time, etc. At his school, TAs don’t lecture; they aren’t “teachers”. </p>
<p>When my hubby was a T/A at Iowa in the early 80s, he literally was the teacher for several classes. I don’t know if Iowa still does that.</p>
<p>Marian, UMD, Penn STate and UMich are on our lists as OOS public unis for us for our upcoming college applicant (junior in HS this year). We certainly are looking at schools that have 7000 kids or more, but I am looking carefully at support systems, how my son will feel about large lecture halls of students, and the availability of courses.</p>
<p>MY good friend, whose very talented and mature D went to UIL found it difficult to get into a number of classes. She wanted to try some premed courses and found it nigh impossible to get into them. She would be up all night on line to get registered. No way my kids would do that, and I don’t want to be in that situation. Another friend’s son had to take a last course after a pseudo graduation because he got locked out of required course and the school would not budge and let him take it. He was permitted to go through the grad ceremoney and take the course thereafter which meant another term at the college taking just one course in stead of getting on with life. I really don’t want that complication.</p>
<p>We did not see TAs “teaching” any courses at any of the colleges I visited in the last 10 years. They would be the head of the sections often called “recitations” where questions are asked, homework is reviewed. Many times those TAs are resentful having to do these recitations. Some are not even aware of what is being taught at the course and could care less, which is a problem if they are grading the exam papers which they have to do most of the time. Foreign TAs are problematic because of their feelings about the “place” of a student especially if they are not familiar with the US culture and some have language impediments. Many are not following the course. Many haven’t taken the course in years. Some of the recitations I visited were appalling. Some of the ones I suffered as an undergrad, we still discuss at reunions, they were so terribly memorable.</p>
<p>Not all large schools have huge classes. D is at her safety (which she chose over her matches) which is 20,000+ students. She has never had a class taught by a TA and has never had more than 30 in a class. In fact, one of the reasons she DIDN’T like this school at first was because she did not want the profs to know her by name and “check up” on her if she missed classes.</p>
<p>She has since changed her tune about small classes and enjoys knowing her profs outside of class.</p>
<p>Scout, my son was in a program at one of our state schools that tends to have large classes at the intro level, but he too had very few if any large classes. That was because his major was one that was pretty much handled carefully with only 50 kids in the department. That can make a big difference.</p>
<p>His girlfriend who was a psych major at the same school had hundreds in most of her classes. She had a beeper device that was assigned so they knew when she showed up for class;l that’s how impersonal the whole thing was. </p>
<p>Some of the top schools, including Harvard, have impersonal classes for early undergrads, but the prestige of the name seems to overcome that disadvantage. That is something that most folks are willing to sacrifice alot for–name recognition and reputation. But why would one choose a school at the same price, same rep as others that do not offer as much personalized attention? The sticker prices are just way too high, in my opinion, for a school not to give freshmen some personal attention.</p>
<p>cptofthehouse,both my S’s have used I-Clickers for a couple of classes. Besides being used for attendance purposes, they can be used for taking quizzes. The I-Clicker has ABCD buttons to select reponses.</p>
<p>None of my kids had those things. I can see their value in large classes, but to need those things when you are paying $55K a year, un…not for me unless that is what the kid really wants.</p>
<p>Wow… always learning something new here on CC. I have never heard of these “clickers” before.</p>
<p>PackMom - Well, I prefer an LAC because I want a professor who can (eventually) take attendance by glancing over the class to see who’s missing. And who will assign challenging essay exams instead of using multiple-choice.</p>
<p>And in terms of class size, I’ve yet to see an intimate English department at a state U. Maybe more intimate than psych… but not by much.</p>
<p>To be sure, some kids thrive better in a larger, broader environment. But I think CC favors LACs because they are the expensive “elite” option–even if the LAC itself is not elite, the financial privilege of paying more for personal attention, smaller classes, intimate advising, etc. is.</p>