<p>When my son was a freshman, one of his professors reportedly said, “How many of you played varsity sports in high school? (Laughed) Never mind, all of you played varsity sports or you wouldn’t be here.” My son recounted this statement because it was the first time he realized that of all the people he knows at college, only one was not an athlete in high school. That student is ironically a sports editor for the school newspaper. Obviously, the vast majority are not recruited athletes, but the majority did play something seriously in high school.</p>
<p>I have a son who does not seem to like team sports at all. He did enjoy about 3 years of neighborhood recreational karate but this year complained so much about the revolving door of new teachers has opted to not participate. He seems to have no interest at all in sports. I have been trying to get him interested in at least watching on t.v. (no luck there). In my opinion he needs it. In his opinion, he does not, and the look on his face when it is mentioned says it all. He is not lacking in other EC’s as he participates in quite a few. He has a very full calendar, and is a very good student. He will be in high school next year. What is a parent like me supposed to do?</p>
<p>“But this thread isn’t about theatre. In my opinion, colleges should “weight” participation in both athletic and “nonathletic” (dubious as that title may be, considering how much sweat I’ve lost during dances) team ECs equally.”</p>
<p>"When my son was a freshman, one of his professors reportedly said, “How many of you played varsity sports in high school? (Laughed) Never mind, all of you played varsity sports or you wouldn’t be here.” </p>
<p>While that may depend on the culture of the school, many (if not most) schools accept non-athletes who have immersed themselves in other ECs, albeit theatre, journalism, dance, student government, or or a host of other activities.</p>
<p>My kids played no high school sports and had many acceptances to outstanding universities including Ivies as well as top LACs. At the schools they are at, they know many, many students who did not play high school sports.</p>
<p>Most of their high school friends who did not participate in team sports are at equally outstanding schools.</p>
<p>Mamaof1: Keeping physically fit is important. Beyond that, you cannot force someone to enjoy something that he does not enjoy.</p>
<p>I don’t think non-recruited athletes are any more valued than kids who spend time in other demanding EC’s. Being in sports does indicate commitment and dedication and maybe social strength, but so does being in all the school plays. My kids hs sends 99% to college, but I’ve noticed that a lot of the school’s top athletes go to community college and a lot of the kids who end up at Ivy-caliber schools don’t do sports at all.</p>
<p>twinmom, I agree it very much depends on the culture of the school. I think UVA takes this approach because of something Jefferson once said. I can’t remember the quote because I’m not a big Jeffersonian fan, but the point I wanted to make was that at some schools being an athlete does help in admissions even if you are not at the recruitable level. At other schools, I’m sure it makes no difference at all. </p>
<p>If my child weren’t interested in playing sports, I wouldn’t try to force the issue. Not sure how you could really. Both my kids are way too stubborn to ever take my advice on anything.</p>
<p>I tried to explain to him that I am not pushing school sports. He can participate in our county’s recreation programs. We are members of a fitness club, so I talk with him about what they have to offer. I think you may have hit some of my concerns on the head. I don’t think he has an interest in physical fitness. P.E. class is a chore to him, but he knows he has to do it. Beyond P.E. class he could care less. I think I will think about what fun things he could do that would not seem to be a “sport” to him, but I could rest assure that he is becoming more physically fit, and how can we as a family fit it into our busy schedule. Thanks Twinmom for giving me something to think about. :)</p>
<p>TheAnalyst: I do think that being an athlete helps in admissions for all the reasons stated in the earlier posts. Non-athletes might be happier in a college environment where the sports culture does not prevail. </p>
<p>Your post inspired me to search for Thomas Jefferson quotes. Perhaps these are applicable to this thread (and to the principles of the great university which he founded):</p>
<p>“Leave all the afternoon for exercise and recreation, which are as necessary as reading. I will rather say more necessary because health is worth more than learning.”</p>
<p>“Determine never to be idle. No person will have occasion to complain of the want of time who never loses any. It is wonderful how much may be done if we are always doing.”</p>
<p>“Do you want to know who you are? Don’t ask. Act! Action will delineate and define you.”</p>
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<p>An excellent quote, though Mr. Jefferson may be rolling over in his grave with the irony of having it posted here ;)</p>
<p>It’s important to remember, as some have mentioned, that “sports” is a pretty broad thing to be talking about. Are we talking about recruited athletes? What about those in major sports, but who won’t be recruited? Or those who’ve achieved great success in very unique, irrelevant-to-college-athletics sports? Those who’ve participated in any sport, at any level? Individual athletes? Team athletes? Each one is going to have an application enhanced by sports, but each will be treated differently. </p>
<p>One of the handy things about sports in general is that if you’re very involved, even if you’re not particularly talented, they can add a lot to an app without any perceived loss of “focus.” One might cover individual accomplishment, teamwork, leadership, work experience, community service, “passion”, long-term dedication, and perhaps a “hook” with different aspects of a single sport, and that’s without even being recruited. The same can definitely be true of other EC’s (theatre, dance, robotics, show choir, scouts, the list goes on…), but there are going to be more athletes than robotics team members in most applicant pools, so it makes sense that sports attract more of our praise and our criticism here. </p>
<p>On the whole, sports have the added benefit of familiarity and visibility. One rarely needs to describe or argue the ways in which sports relate to discipline, dedication, time management, teamwork (if applicable), or what have you. It doesn’t mean that the same can’t be true of other EC’s, but it might mean that applicants who’ve been deeply involved in other pursuits have to be more descriptive to lead adcoms to the same conclusions. I could certainly argue that I used many of the same personal skills in musical groups that I developed in sports, but it might not be obvious without elaboration. In some ways, “sports” is like application shorthand (but hardly alone in that).</p>
<p><a href=“%5Burl=http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059951313-post11.html]#11[/url]”>quote</a> Come on, this crap is ridiculous. Anything you can find in sports you can find in academia.
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<p>One can probably set their watch to the [url=<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum]zero-sum[/url”>Zero-sum game - Wikipedia]zero-sum[/url</a>] arguments made on these threads. The angst-filled argument belies a fear that an athlete’s earned benefits comes at the expense of the academician. There’s enough goodness to go around in sports, academics and any combination thereof.</p>
<p>“Anything you can find in sports you can find in academia” is observably specious. Were that the case, there would be no need for both; one would suffice. Likewise is the false dichotomy that one is more important than the other. Each contribute to a whole that is greater than the sum of its individual parts.</p>
<p>The Evolutionary lens reveals that humans have been involved in ‘academic pursuits’ for a relative blink - or would that be conscious wink 
- of an eye. Though an important component of the society we experience today, academics rest on the foundation of the physical/mental evolution we experienced as a species. That evolution included group-bonding, hunting strategies and other physical/mental skills honed over millennia; skills that are now the foundation of many sports. </p>
<p>Sports are more than a vestigial social behavior, they develop abilities that complement and made possible academic pursuits. Colleges do right by recognizing both the heart (physical/metaphorical) and mind that an applicant has to offer.</p>
<p>i think at the heart of this is that athletic EC’s show specific individual accomplishment that everyone can’t simply ‘sign up’ to do.</p>
<p>Not to take anything away from other endeavors, but any one can sign up to volunteer, to do any number of types of community service, etc. Even HS elected offices are often seen as the result of a school popularity contest.</p>
<p>But, participation and achievement in a sport or the arts, music etc. show individual effort and all that goes with that and what it implies from time investment, time management, skill, sacrifice, cooperative effort etc.</p>
<p>I’m a drama teacher, so for me to say this about sports is really admitting something . . .</p>
<p>As mentioned before, you learn teamwork and balancing your work load with practice and homework.</p>
<p>But you also have to learn how to keep up on classwork/tests missed because you were out of class for games, how to get your homework assignments because you were out of class, and how to turn your assignments in on time–self-taught–just like you weren’t out of class at all.</p>
<p>In drama, the students go through all of the same–but they only miss a few days of class per semester during Tech Week–not quite the same as missing 2 to 4 classes per week for games–usually the same classes, too.</p>
<p>This is a great thread, and I have always wondered about the extraordinary emphasis some parents (and schools) place on this. I see the value for some students, but not all. I think you need to develop your strength.</p>
<p>Participation in some ECs can sometimes exclude the ability to participate in any sports. My daughter is so involved in music and drama ECs, both before and after school, there is no sport (except for maybe our neighborhood swim team or some golf in the summer - and that is even a stretch for her given her summer lineup).</p>
<p>Our experience with athletics ended in middle school, with a broken arm obtained during “winter soccer”. This became quite an issue with her band director, as she is first trumpet at an all-girls school.</p>
<p>If our D(who now spends 2 hrs playing on a normal day and 3-5 hours playing during the peak of certain musicals or performance ECs) is ever asked about not participating in sports during HS, the answer is going to be that the activities were mutually exclusive for her, due to schedule conflicts AND risk of injury. The music has been far more important and valuable for her. It is competetive, requires extrordinary team work, it also has a ‘solo’ aspect, and it is very challenging intellectually. Her leadership role at school and her community service also center around music.</p>
<p>It happens to be at her school that there are no good athletes that are also good musicians, and vice versa. (jack of all trades, master of none?) The few I see doing both tend to be average at both, or very bad at one and the other!</p>
<p>D is also extremely fit aerobically. Her abs inspire envy (mine!) We’ve stressed ‘fitness’ in the house, not competetive athletics. There are many individuals who are fit but do not play team sports.</p>
<p>The highschool is also being more sensitive to support and accolades for the students in the arts.</p>
<p>I have kids who had a high degree of success in both competitive music and competitive sports, so I would like to add that while there are similaritites, there are also differences.</p>
<p>Similarities: need lots of ambition and perseverence, dedication, time investment, organizational skills, learn both team and individual performance skills</p>
<p>Differences: Music has physical skills, to be sure, but it is very much a mental discipline and may provide an emotional release. A sport has some mental components to it, such as planning and analysis of a situation, but it is an all-out physical release that kids just can’t get from music (maybe it’s the endorphins?).</p>
<p>Our hs has a number of kids who are good in the fine arts and also in sports. I believe they endeavor to do both because they get something very different out of each one. Each endeavor pushes the students to their limits in a different way. Also, keep in mind that kids will meet some very different groups of people in each activity, which I think has some intrinsic value all to itself.</p>
<p>My S has been a 3-season athlete every year in HS. He has also played an instrument, taking private lessons and playing in the regional youth symphony. He is a good, but not recruitable athlete. He is a good, but not star musician. Balancing the time demands of the daily practices and games/meets with lessons and orchestra rehearsals and performances has been tough. He has done this while taking the most rigorous possible courseload at his school, including 8 APs, usually having precisely one study hall per week (and that is often used to meet with an independent study mentor). Even his arts requirement involved extra effort, since his school has no offerings for his instrument. He has also played in the pit orchestra for drama club productions, and so forth. </p>
<p>I list all of this because I have gotten the strong impression that all of his commitment to athletics and music means absolutely nothing to colleges. They simply do not seem to care. If he could run one of his events 5 or 6 seconds faster, maybe he’d have a likely letter right now. Unfortunately, he simply does not have that level of physical talent.</p>
<p>I’m happy that he is a well-rounded individual who has both sports and music in his life. I agree with lkf725 that he gets something different out of each thing. But frankly it is discouraging to feel that the time management skills and effort and determination of the kids who are NOT athletic stars is sharply devalued. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe the endless wait is just getting to me. I certainly hope so.</p>
<p>Why are athletics valued? Because it’s ingrained into Western culture. Ever hear of the Athenian notions the ideal man? Or consider the Latin phrase “men sana in corpore sano,” which is literally “a sound mind in a sound body” - a state of being to which we should aspire.</p>
<p>The idea that one should educate the whole person and not just the mind is an honored tradition that comes down to us from the ancients. In modern application the transcripts and diplomas are evidence of having educated the mind, and athletics is evidence of having educated the body.</p>
<p>Consolation: I would not be all that concerned. Once again, my kids got into many top universities and colleges without athletics or music. Colleges are looking for something that a student shows commitment to. Schools like HYPM are often looking for something special; athletics (unless recruited) doesn’t do it.</p>
<p>1) you learn how to work with a team thats not all about the individual…something bigger than yourself…2)you learn many leadership qualities…3) you’re usually healthy and care about what kind of shape you’re in…4) you learn different ways of using your brain and develop an even quicker thought process…5) you’ve kept yourself significantly busy outside the classroom…i.e. you wake up at 5:30 in the morning to go to morning lifting at 6…then you get a quick locker-room shower and hustle to your 8’oclock class, work all day fighting the urge to fall asleep in class…then after school you hustle back down to the locker room and suit up for a 3 and a half hour lacrosse practice…you finish, exausted from your two huge tests and weightlifting and practice…then you go home, eat a quick dinner, hop in the shower for a minute, and get out rushing to start your 4-hour homework load…you work till about 2 (if lucky) when you can no longer function, and then wake up to your notre dame fight song on your phone telling you its 5:30 again and time to start the same day all over again… when the school week’s over, practice isn’t… nope, a 4 and a half hour practice for Saturday…this doesnt even include game nights 3 hours away, in which case you get a 6 pack of red bull and prepare yourself for an all-nighter…in other words you learn to strain yourself as much as possible and exaust yourself as much as possible, physically and mentally, to the point where your entire body aches…its respected because you learn to juggle a ton, and discover ways to function on a literally empty tank…and yes, for doing all this it better pay off (not that i do not completely love it). :)</p>
<p>Consolation – if you substitute newspaper for music, our sons match up almost to a tee!<br>
I think you are right on target about the “if he could run one of his events 5 or 6 seconds faster” part. Our son is definitely not a stereotypical jock, but LOVES running, and in our small HS, was good enough to captain three teams, win a couple division races, and even qualify for states (and he was thrilled). But, when he sent in the online recruting form-- nothing in reply. He waited til spring (and better times) to re-submit, but the answer was still - zip. He’s realistic, but he was still very bummed out. </p>
<p>The good news is that he was good enough to make his college’s Div. III team. I had real reservations about three seasons of sports in college, but all that time put into sports and ECs in high school is great preparation. He has a very tough schedule this semester, but has managed to budget his time very well. He is looking forward to getting past some injuries and really contributing next year, and so far (surprisingly) academics haven’t suffered. So-- in some ways, I think they definitely are rewarded.
Good luck!!!</p>
<p>I have no criticism or bias against sports. I’m sure all that has been said for its benefits, is true. However, there are a number of real misunderstandings and overcategorizing on this thread, regarding just how physical the performing arts can be, how time-consuming, just how involving of sacrifice they can be, how even team-oriented they can be.</p>
<p>There are many varieties of music, dance, and drama. First of all, to get really good at any of them (enough to be outstanding, let alone enough to have a college sit up and take notice), a tremendous amount of physical training is involved. Singers, for example, often swim or climb to enlarge their lung capacity; ditto for some wind instrument players. If you play a stringed instrument & hope to play it extremely well, you must be physically rigorous about your preparation to practice, as well. (A good teacher will guide that process.) Anyone who is seriously in dance (including ballet) does, and must, work out rigorously; otherwise, you will have zero stamina for your pas de chats, your grandes battements, your butterflies, etc. (Ditto for ice-skating, which is both athletic & artistic.) The practices of any disciplined dance form are in themselves significant workouts, usually daily. As with a sport, not to do so is to affect the next day’s performance. </p>
<p>Now, if you’re doing it just as a hobby, or to put it on your college application resume as “an activity,” no, you don’t have to do those things.</p>
<p>If you’re in drama, particularly in musical theater, you often have to keep your lungs, your throat, and your body in optimum shape. If you are in any kind of a drama production on a regular basis (musical or not), you will stay after school for several hours per day once rehearsals begin, through the last day of the actual performance – sacrificing time for study, recreation, & additional e.c.'s., often returning late at night. As a cast member, or as part of tech crew, you will be sacrificing for the “team” and learn how to adjust for the group, how to cooperate & put your ego aside for the common good.</p>
<p>At my d’s school, journalism is a huge deal as well. This is a nationally awarded h.s. newspaper (twice); they sacrifice enormously – from virtual all-nighters to crack-of-dawn starts, to sacrifices during times that classmates are on vacation or enjoying the weekend. Teamwork is also a significant part of it. Ditto for yearbook at that school. </p>
<p>This also doesn’t address the fact that if you are very ambitious in a performing art, you tend to have multiple levels of involvement: you will be called on to use it in community service, as well as in other performing opportunities at school – such as for visiting dignitaries, etc. That in itself often involves sacrificing something like your favorite class, an opportunity for a study group, or an off-campus activity the rest of the school is attending. Additionally, if you are accomplished, you are normally in several musical groups on & off-campus, as well: you may be in a youth orchestra which tours internationally, possibly also being First Chair in your school orchestra and/or a chamber group at school.</p>
<p>The reason that I know all this is that we are a multiple-arts family, with many such performing arts involvements, from age 3 and up. And if you are indeed involved in more than one performing art simultaneously, the juggling and the sleep deprivation becomes just unreal. I’m amazed my children weren’t hospitalized during their h.s. years. – not for injuries (which they also had, as most athletic dancers have), but for sheer exhaustion. (D is sacrificing her studies & her Sunday right now, practicing for a performance to be held this week, for which she’ll be required to arrive very early.)</p>
<p>They did multiple arts, multiple kinds of leadership/sacrifice, while sustaining high-level advanced academics.</p>
<p>From my experience (& comparing notes with parents of h.s. athletes), it works out to be comparable – the advantage to a sport being that all those aspects tend to be combined in one directed activity, as opposed to 2-3 hrs of daily music + 2-3 hrs. of dance. (And, as with sports, my own dd’s traveled to multiple studios to dance, signficantly cutting into available study time & sleep time.)</p>