<p>I think/hope that if they love their EC – whatever it is – they won’t regret all that effort. There might well be end of year productions, meets, championships, etc which push up against APs, SATs, SAT 2’s, Regents, finals, you name it. I recall the spring of junior year seeming especially brutal. But in S’s case, as for many of the students here, I bet they wouldn’t trade those memories for anything, and many in fact continue those interests throughout college and after,</p>
<p>Indeed, lspf. D#1 is still at one of those major e.c.'s, 3rd year in college now; and she continued the other one until she no longer had transportation there off campus.</p>
<p>Exhaustion and all, they have loved & still do love them. Additionally, it has left me as well with wonderful memories.</p>
<p>I have nothing against those who choose not to participate in athletics, but it really has no credibility for someone who has not been part of a great team to talk about how sports shouldn’t have much value. Anybody who has practiced for hours every single day to get their body in the best shape possible and worked as a team to achieve a major goal realizes how much that means for that person. It really says a lot about their dedication and sense of personal responsibility.</p>
<p>bigp - athletics are tremendously overvalued. They are popular because they allow adults to relive their youths vicariously, and in the case of the revenue sports, provide entertainment which attracts dollars to the school. They often interfere with the academic mission. I recognize that this is all just howling in the wind because athletics will always remain popular and disproportionate to their importance, but really, I can’t come to any other conclusion that athletics really are overvalued and often diminish the academic mission of the school. I can’t say enough about the way Division III does things - the right balance, in my view. </p>
<p>Now, before you question my credentials to state the same - I was a national championship athlete in high school, on a team that is considered one of the best of all time, attended college (one of the 2 ranked in the top 10 USNWR that gives athletic scholarships), went to college on an athletic scholarship, was an All American while in college, and was by any measure an intense and accomplished athlete. I recognize the intangibles of athletics but there is no reason that these cannot be obtained in a way that is much more balanced than is practiced in Division 1.</p>
<p>Re, Post 43:</p>
<p>Who has said “sports shouldn’t have much value?” Certainly not myself. In fact I’ve said quite the opposite. However, no one who has chosen to forego other (& similarly team-oriented) athletic performance in favor of traditional sports should state that sports is somehow superior in that regard. It’s equal, i.m.o., not superior.</p>
<p>This is a deja-vu thread since we discussed this last year.</p>
<p>Athletics might provide discipline and time management that other activities don’t provide;however, I don’t think that athletics are appreciated because of that.</p>
<p>I don’t buy the fact that kids develop stronger time management skills through athletics. The same can be said for musical performances and practices and certain academic accomplishments.</p>
<p>If I remember what was said on the other thread, it boils down to three major reasons:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Colleges basically adopt the ancient greek philosophy of strong body, strong mind. Both are considered essential.</p></li>
<li><p>Secondly, many years ago, the ivy schools wanted to improve the “good looks” of their student body. Yes, this is really true!
Obviously, acceptances based on good looks isn’t politically correct, BUT kids that have strong athletic ECs are obviously in good shape. I think that this factor may be the major reason for colleges’ emphasis on athletic ECs.</p></li>
<li><p>Kids who have strong athletic ECs will probably participate in college athletics,which, inturn, will boost the quality and quantity of college sports.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Depending on the activity, and the level of its demands, I don’t think “athletics provide discipline and time management that other activities don’t provide,” but I do agree with points 1 and 2 as being a traditional outlook of the super-selective schools.</p>
<p>I see my Ds friends, and all they can do is their sport…that is there EC because of time…and its sad to me that tradition ie sports…is seen superior to so many other wothy activities that required team work</p>
<p>Does working on the stage crew for weeks on end, should that be seen as less valuable? Those kids work hard, and do it for no personal glory, but to help others be able to shine</p>
<p>That to be is immeaserably important, not having to “win” in order to contribute, not having to be the star in order to shine, not having to get your name in the paper in order to contribute to their school</p>
<p>this frustrates me to no end</p>
<p>I’m starting to see now why I was puzzled as to why athletics is seen in a more positive light than other ECs. </p>
<p>Our approach to athletics, even in high school, is that it’s just another fun activity. Does it take more time, during the season, than his other ECS? Yeah, but he doesn’t spend hours in the off season in the weight room, never has played on a select team, has never had private lessons, etc. Sports are wonderful and have been good for my boys, but I just have never seen them as substantially more valuable than any of their other activities (Scouts, clubs, theater, band, etc.) </p>
<p>But, yes, when looking at it through the Greek philosophy angle, I can see what everyone is saying. I will say, too, that my older son really is more organized during his season. I think he does seem to be more “on top of his game” then, literally and figuratively.</p>
<p>YDS,
You bring up a good point about off-seasons – versus e.c.'s which are year-round. I don’t have sons; perhaps if I did, and if they were not athletes, they would have suffered in college admissions (if they chose not to engage in high-revenue, high-profile sports). All I know is, that both of my D’s participated in sports only in elem. & middle schools. By the time they entered high school, their commitment to the physical training they had put into their other e.c.,s would never have permitted them to add team sports on top of that. (D#2 a few times wanted to run track in h.s., and had the speed & power for that, but time conflicts with the other would not allow it.) They made their choices; they seem to have no regrets about that. And judging from the acceptances & comments from Penn, Yale, & Princeton, those U’s seemed not to be particularly upset either. (Comments written on the acceptance letter.)</p>
<p>Additionally, adding different physical activities often result in compounded injuries, eliminating the student from one or another physical e.c. This is the other reason that they couldn’t opt for sports on top of everything else.</p>
<p>I’m currently in an ivy-league institution, and while I hear a lot about the time-management skills of athletes, I’ve yet to see it as a common occurrence. I live around plenty of athletes, and they tend to be the ones who stay up the latest and who never study. There’s a guy that stays up to 6 AM regularly (I know this because of his very, very loud sex sessions), another guy who recently walked into a class without knowing that a prelim would be held on that day, another guy who wakes me up a 3 am butt-naked to see if he can pee in the toilet that apparently resides in my closet, another guy who is on academic probation because he stayed up all night and never went to class, and another guy who received a D- last semester and drank himself blind one night and so on. </p>
<p>Now, the female athletes I know tend to do much better, but still, for all the hype I hear about sports giving participants a super-natural level of responsibility, maturity and time-management, I’m just not seeing it. The athletes I know are pretty similar to the rest of us, except they seem to party a lot harder and seem a lot… more challenged by schoolwork (there’s a study group consisting of most of the athletes on my floor that operates in my hall’s lounge, and their discussions about the basics of economics made me wonder how the hell they ever made it into the school. A few of them surprised me even further by their complete inability to grasp java… they couldn’t handle material I learned by skimming a chapter of our book before class even after half a dozen lectures and hours of study.)</p>
<p>Sorry if I seem a bit bitter, but I’m really having a hard time meeting athletes that satisfy the hype of the scholar-athlete. I’m sure there are spectacular scholar-athletes out there, but I personally have not met many. I’m certainly beginning to doubt the notion that their athletic ECs are worth that much attention in admissions.</p>
<p>Ray192, although I have known one or two exceptions to what you have noted, my experience with athletes tend to mirror yours. I have rarely seen an athlete who I respected academically. Moreover, as a whole, they had horrible academic attitutes.Even in law school, I met several college athletes who were at the bottom of our law school class, if they graduated at all. </p>
<p>I honestly think that the reasons for athletic emphasis for EC are found in post 46. I honestly don’t think that the time management skills, team work skill development has anything to do with the athletic emphasis. Moreover, I also don’t believe that athletics have a monopoly on many of these skills that over some other ECs such as musical or artistic performance etc. </p>
<p>My daughter is a good example, Yes, she wasn’t an athlete. However, she spent literally hundreds and maybe even thousands of hours taking courses and preparing her portfolio during high school. I can’t imagine an athlete puting in more hours. This also didn’t count the countless hour she practiced for high school musicals in which she played flute.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I seriously wonder where you have been looking. Look at our nation’s service academies - for one. Every student is an athlete. Well over 90% of all cadets at West Point were Varsity letter winners. They are quite the academic group.</p>
<p>My kids went to a pretty small rural/suburban high school of <1000 students. The benefit was that many athletic and other extra curricular activities are open to them. Over years more often that not, the top graduates have been athletes. Good ones as well. I know countless kids who were in band, marching band, the school musical (yes even leads), stage crew, student council, NHS etc and were high school varisty athletes. Our high school fosters a culture of involvement. There are no “rules” that if you play football you can’t be in the school musical.</p>
<p>Most high school varsity athletes don’t compete at the college level. A lot of kids just get tired of sports and want to do different things, they have a demanding major or they know they will be sitting on the bench. This does not negate the fact that their high school varsity participation did helped them develop teamwork, leadership, time management and the ability to win and lose gracefully.</p>
<p>Is it also possible that athletic skill crosses all boundaries (economic class, race, etc.) as opposed to fancy programs that cost thousands of dollars which are used to bulk up resume’s. Just a thought.</p>
<p>“I have rarely seen an athlete who I respected academically. Moreover, as a whole, they had horrible academic attitutes.”</p>
<p>That is by far the stupidest thing i have ever heard…do you socialize? were you born in a cave?have you ever met an ND student…i would say that most of the students were outstanding athletes in high school and many were #1 in their class…seriously what are you talking about</p>
<p>“Over years more often that not, the top graduates have been athletes.”</p>
<p>At my D’s school, the athletes were definitely not the top graduates, but went on to very good public U’s. The top graduates were the ones who did what taxguy’s D did but who also were exceptionally accomplished for 10-15 years in multiple performing arts OFF campus. We’re talking national & international levels here. All of those top graduates were accepted to elites. This is not an arts-emphasis high school; quite the opposite. To have accomplished that on top of the rigorous academics demanded an unusual commitment to the discipline & to the inconvenience of maintaining & increasing the skill level. Apparently being in it for the long haul counts for something, in the admissions committees of selective U’s. And those admitees ranged from impoverished to middle class to wealthy, & none of them were legacy admits.</p>
<p>
I think there is an enormous difference between high school kids who plays a sport for the love of the game and recruited college athletes. So many hs kids participate in a sport and they mostly all do an admirable job academically too. But how many of those go on to college sports? Very few. And those that do probably are the ones who had no balance between academics and arts and athletics in hs, but were certainly the superstars in their sports. Those are the student athletes you get in college, many of whom got in only for that reason. I can completely believe Ray192’s stories, because I have seen it too. </p>
<p>But we really do need to distinguish between the hard-working hs athlete and the recruited college athlete.</p>
<p>hikids–you mean like those elite soccer camps costing thousands and travel teams costing hundreds that the recruited athlete soccer players I know attended on a yearly basis? You mean like those kids with country club lessons in golf and tennis who got likelies for those sports? I know another kid who got a likely letter to Harvard for a sport that apparently costs about $20K per year to participate in at a high level.</p>
<p>Don’t kid yourself: while there certainly are some kids who are able to participate in some sports without spending a lot of money, grooming a kid for recruited athlete status in many sports costs big $$.</p>
<p>Playing a sport devotedly and spiritedly is bad? Never had a passion for something? There is no wrong answer here. There will always be those who play to get into college and those who do it for fun and those who do many, many other activities for the same reason. Athletes not the top graduates? The top “athlete” at my daughter’s school went on to Harvard. My own child was the top “athlete” in his sport, was valedictorian and was given a scholarship from an outside organization related to his sport. These kids also play instruments, do leadership, NHS, dedicated community service for many years, and more. My son also traveled for his sport. Very time consuming and you really must love it to do it successfully. Sometimes a little envy creeps in and things are stated about people that simply are not true. I think this happens often regarding top students and athletes. My son now plays his sport for fun and graduated as the top engineering student in his field for undergrad. My other children have played sports, too, and love them. This had enhanced their lives, not hindered them. My one daughter decided after many years of one sport that she wanted to try others. (after the sophomore year!) She ended up being mvp on her varsity team and is now waiting for her college acceptances. We did not force her to stay in the first sport, even considering that she had received “recruitment interest” letters early. Oh, and she is not even considering playing the last sport in college. I find that kids who do ANY activity that they love are the ones that colleges gravitate towards.</p>
<p>I think there is a lot of stereotyping involved re: athletes, so I won’t go there.
My S used to go to a private, parochial school. He was doing group sports as a young child, but was never a star . Quite frankly, he was rather in the bottom pack on the field:-) He was a star academically, but his school was recognizing athletes far higher than academics. Examples: numerous teams in different sports, but no math club, no book club, no chesss club etc. at the school. My son has been finally noticed by a P.E. teacher when he run the fastest mile as a third grader (in his grade of course:-). Yes, he is a good runner, but this is not a group sport, so not really noticed by the school. He is also a decent swimmer and a good tennis player - since his dad loves the sport.</p>
<p>The experience of the first school did not turn my S away from sports in general, but from team sports probaly yes. To this day he runs, and might not be the fastest around but he is fast, he swims, and does it well, he fences, althought he is not crazy about participating in every single tournament. His skiing skills are great, but we live 20 min. away from the ski resort:-). I honestly believe, the whole admission craze put aside, that my S will benefit from his “non group sport activities” much more in adult life,than if he was, let’s say, a quarterback. How many footbal players play footbal in their 40’s or 50’s? Then again, how many play tennis, run, swim, ski ???</p>
<p>
Was he/she a recruited athlete?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, I will believe in NHS, community service, But I have yet to meet a varsity athlete who is at the same time a recognized (meaning with some major acomplishments)musician. I think that you can’t do both if you want to be very good in one of them. They both require too much involvement.</p>