<p>Dross, there must be some practicing Catholics out there on CC who are raising their kids like you are. My brother in law is one of them. You’re not isolated, really.</p>
<p>I enter this discussion with fear and trepidation, but only to say that Drosselmeier is not alone, and I hope our kids meet someday! I haven’t felt the need to chime in, because it’s not a democracy needing my vote, and Drosselmeier states things very eloquently - much better than I could.</p>
<p>I remember 4 years ago when I was new on CC, there was a discussion about someone’s daughter dating a boy in his 20s who was <em>gasp</em> a virgin, and there was much discussion about what was Wrong with him. At the time, I was surprised about the one-sidedness of the discussion, and I am glad to see opposing viewpoints represented here. </p>
<p>That, along with other past and current threads are rife with people having sincere and eloquent discussions delving into reasons, experiences, and rationalizations. I enjoy reading those discussions (but I don’t usually join in – too afraid). I like hearing the motives and reasonings of people on both sides of an issue. I get a lot of food for thought. </p>
<p>There are always posters, though, who are also trying to find affirmation for whatever choice they have made. This is common – whether you breast fed or bottle fed, used cloth or disposable – we’ve all been in these situations before. Sometimes seeking affirmation takes on the flavor of bashing those who reached a different conclusion. We throw the words “intolerant” or “judgemental” around a lot, but they are slippery words and sometimes bounce back.</p>
<p>If there were easy answers, what would we talk about?</p>
<p>binx, Well put. </p>
<p>Dross: You are not alone, that is why I suggested consulting your clergy person. I know many with your views.</p>
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<p>Drosselmeier, very well written and personal thoughts you are sharing … thank you </p>
<p>The first BIG disagreement I had with my mom was about the church in which I was raised. At 16 it was clear to me that I did not believe in the teachings of the church and I should not be a member of the church and that, to me, it was hypocritical for me to attend the church. As you can imagine this did not go over very well with my mom. She believed I had made a HUGE mistake.</p>
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This is the tough part. I did not realize I made a mistake … I have realized as I grew into my spirtual understanding that I was (for me) right and that it is diametrically opposed to my mother’s beliefs … so I, the child, never relized I was wrong about rejecting my mom’s beliefs; I am more sure now than ever about my beliefs. As mom and son, 30 years later, we have figured out how to deal with this landmine in our relationship … we have figure out what to do and say … and what not to say and do … and pretty much figured out how to nevigate around a disconnect on such a central part of who we are. That said it does occationally rear it’s ugly head (for example, then the 3togo arrived). I am thankful that my mom was quite accepting of the adult I grew into … both the parts she liked and the parts she would have preferred to develop differently.</p>
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And yet not all differences are mistakes, they’re merely differences.</p>
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My foster-mother, a good woman who died last month, hit me with a horrifying thought when I was about 20, having endured a pretty dysfunctional and pain-filled childhood: “You will not make the mistakes that were made with you. But in the process of avoiding them, you will back into other mistakes.” As an observer of the human condition, I have watched attitudes ripple down family trees, sometimes recurring and reinforcing, sometimes in a pattern of action/reaction/counter-reaction. </p>
<p>Fwiw, saving my D pain has never been among my top 20 or so desires for her. It’s a part of life that can’t be avoided. Instead, I’m pleased, to whatever extent I can take any credit, that she has grown up with generally good judgment, emotional resilience, a pretty impressive sense of who she is and what her values are, and a certain amount of toughness when dealing with adversity.</p>
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<p>This seems horribly binary, black-and-white. My sister has married someone whose family style and culture is very different from my own. I would never be comfortable adopting such style and culture myself but it matter not a whit to me that they are different and in fact it makes gatherings a little more interesting. For that matter, we are Catholic and at least two of my D’s romantic interests over the years have been Jewish. I don’t think this is something to flip out about and I have for more worthy concerns about a prospective future son in-law (okay, I start thinking about it if she even <em>likes</em> a guy) than what his faith and attendant cultural differences might bring.</p>
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This is just projection and a bad syllogism: My parents made Choice X, Choice X worked out badly for them, therefore Choice X is bad. </p>
<p>[One of the other badly framed arguments in this thread is about the jaded effects of having 100 or more lovers before marriage. Say what?! Having sex before marriage does not necessarily imply such a frenetic experience. Having 1-3 lovers per year for ten years, with the possibility of some long-term relationships lasting one or more years, paints quite a different picture. It’s not the fact of sex before marriage that can lead one to become jaded or emotionally damaged. Questions of how and why are often more important than what.]</p>
<p>There is only one black and one white but there are infinite shades of gray. Relatively few choices are black or white and I don’t think that a priori having sex before marriage is one of them. Personally, I’d be more concerned if my D <em>didn’t</em> have sex before marriage but that’s because I think sex in marriage is important and sexual fulfillment for women is much more partner-dependent for women than it is for men and who wants to find out that one has signed up for 50 years of tedium only after it’s too late?</p>
<p>"I see it as the most effective way to avoid the baggage and trauma I experienced as a result of my parents’ mistakes in this area. "</p>
<p>Don’t worry, you will end up with a complete set of your own matching luggage.</p>
<p>^^ LOL Opie</p>
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Agreed, but in some cases a large enough difference can mean a definite break in union. What to do in this case is the issue here as far as I am concerned.</p>
<p>It is perhaps true that in the process of avoiding mistakes we back into other mistakes. I am not at all convinced of this, but it could be true. Whatever the case, it is not horrifying to me in he least.</p>
<p>What is truly horrifying is seeing a mistake play out across generation after generation as it has in my family and in so many families around me, knowing it is a mistake, seeing and feeling the destruction of it, and then taking a nonchallant attitude about avoiding it simply because I am going to make other mistakes.</p>
<p>I can’t say I have assigned number categories to how important it is for me to save my kids from pain. When I look at the issue in such simplistic terms as you have presented here I must say I have never considered it important at all. It is quite important for me to establish a cultural framework that enables my kids to live fulfilling and fruitful lives whatever happens.</p>
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Hehe. And there it is. I think the thing about blackness and whiteness is that they show up everywhere, even when our vision is not sensitive enough to see them in the alleged grays of life. However open-minded we claim to be, we still must choose what we think is best. The issue for me here concerns the fine points of these choices. The division is going to take place, whether it is on a large scale or small one. I am curious about our obligations to ourselves when they occur - just the principle of it.</p>
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Actually, I don’t form an argument here. As I said, it is just a preference, and it is not based even on this misrepresentation of my views. My view, if anything, is something like this. My parents made Choice X, as their parents did before them, and theirs before them. Other parents all throughout my community also made Choice X, as did their parents. Indeed their children also made Choice X, and their children’s children are also making Choice X to this very day-- and in not even one of these cases, across multiple decades, have I ever seen Choice X accompanied by anything but grief.</p>
<p>It seems wherever Choice X exists, there grief exists also. It may be, therefore, reasonable to review the culture wherein Choice X is made routinely, and then correct the culture. Perhaps Choice X can be made in some better way. Others claim it so. But perhaps in the new culture we might even consider avoiding Choice X altogether and making Choice Y instead. I made Choice Y and have had only beauty accompany it. So, perhaps I might teach this and with the support of those who matter most to me maintain the culture I have fashioned.</p>
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I would not know about this, since it lies outside of my experience. And I do not have any other evidence that it is true.</p>
<p>Hey 3togo that was a great post.</p>
<p>I started out in response by saying that I could see how something like differences in religion could work because I do not think the differences necessarily create ill behavior that destroy community. Then I thought better of it. Your example is actually quite good. What appears to be happening here is that your mother rejects a very important part of your culture, if not the whole culture, and in a sense refuses to acknowledge it (which is why she avoids it). She nevertheless affiliates with you where she can despite the wall between you that the differences have created. This division applies also to you, since you first rejected the culture she taught you. I think the way your mother and you handled it is probably the best way possible in the case where two people are just unable to reach each other fully on such basic issues as religion.</p>
<p>Now here is the real question for me: Do you think she is obligated to act as she did (and if so what obligates her)? If to the best of her ability she thinks her ideas are superior to yours for herself, then is she obligated to in any way lay aside what she knows is best, to instead defer to your ideals (say by negotiating the “landmines” your differences have caused)? I almost don’t think so.</p>
<p>Are you a serious philosopher, Drosselmeier?</p>
<p>No. Why would you ask this?</p>
<p>You sound like a deep thinker. </p>
<p>I enjoy reading your posts. It’s like food for the brain. I admire your opinions, and I must say I agree with most of them.</p>
<p>Ah, I see. Hey thanks, clueless.</p>
<p>I don’t think I’m deep at all. But I do wonder how other folks deal with this stuff, and about just how contrary my views seem to them. Apparently I am far out there, which is fine. I have suspected as much, but until now haven’t really explained anything to anyone other than to my wife and kids. I am open to change, certainly. But I want to see compelling reasons for it, and positive results in the marital fulfillment and general family life of those who advocate those changes. Not being smug here. I am very eager to adopt better ways to do things.</p>
<p>Gotta do some more work…</p>
<p>Once upon a time, I was an engineering student. I then made a long trek into political science and then eventually into literature, writing, and even (as a semi-informed observer) dance. Part of that migration involved a learning that the “right answer” in many situations is not necessarily as discrete as the engineer might be inclined to think. </p>
<p>Your children have your genetic make-up, but only in part. The experiences that shape them are not the experiences that shaped you. They did not grow up in the times in which you grew up. As a result of both nature and nurture, they will develop to be different people in many ways, some trivial, some not so trivial. Ergo, the “right” answers for you may not be the “right” answers for them.</p>
<p>Are your children kind? Honest? Armed with purpose in life? Hardworking? Equipped with a sense of humor? Loyal? I could probably come up with another dozen or two qualities that I thought important if I took half an hour. Nowhere among them would be questions regarding sexual activity save that they never coerce anyone, are honest with their partners and themselves (e.g., not pretending to be in for a long-term relationship when you know better), and don’t use public places like a Minneapolis airport stall.</p>
<p>I think it pays to look at the broad brush strokes and to let the other stuff slide.</p>
<p>Once upon a time I was a music student. I then made a long trek into computer science and then eventually into coding, system design, even into consulting. Part of that migration involved learning that more often than not, there are definite solutions to problems, and that not all of them are as equal as the writers and poets would have us think.</p>
<p>My children have my genetic makeup, in part. The experiences that shape them are not the experiences that shaped me. But they are not entirely divorced from the experiences that shaped me. I think in fact the experiences of my life are reaching through me to influence my children quite powerfully, and not just through me. The experiences of vast numbers of past lives now reach through a variety of people other than me, to influence my children. When the Harvard guy here claimed:</p>
<p>“[I</a> hate to sound so harsh, but I have expectations to live up to](<a href=“http://farm2.static.■■■■■■■■■■/1340/1407927050_f847d40569.jpg?v=0]I”>http://farm2.static.■■■■■■■■■■/1340/1407927050_f847d40569.jpg?v=0). No Black, Asian, overweight, or unattractive women please.”</p>
![http://farm2.static.■■■■■■■■■■/1340/1407927050_f847d40569.jpg?v=0]I](http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1340/1407927050_f847d40569.jpg?v=0%5DI){kind=link}
<p>he made a comment about my daughter that is supported by tens of millions of people. It did not appear to us here out of a vacuum. It has hundreds of years of experience behind it, both from those who caused it and from those who have endured it. I have learned that for some things, it is best that I be concerned about those past experiences. In this particular case I understand the usefulness of the experience of those who for centuries have had to endure these sorts of commentaries. They are relevant even today and offer me and mine definite solutions for coping. I have reviewed the solutions, altered them to better fit our circumstances, tested and retested them, used them in beta form, and then in final production in the lives of my children - who will hopefully do likewise for their children. I am not so much interested in “right” answers, but in the best, most efficient design for the problem. The past can help me here, but I am always evaluating the thing.</p>
<p>I see questions regarding sexual activity in every virtue you’ve mentioned. I do not think a partition exists between kindess and sex. In my view, my children cannot lack kindness in sex or even fail to think of it, and yet consider themselves kind. They must be kind enough to focus more intently on the wishes of their mates than on their own, be hardworking enough to study, and practice fulfilling those wishes, have enough of a sense of humor to enjoy the times when things do not work as planned, be loyal enough to remain faithful till their very last breath. I do not think it possible to separate sex and virtue.</p>
<p>I understand our views differ here, and that is fine - but this is the view I hold and I cannot possibly teach those I love anything else unless I see a reason for it. I think I have an obligation to maintain it until I see something that strikes me as more human.</p>
<p>After tossing this around as we have, it is clear to me we will simply have to agree to disagree on this.</p>