<p>Don’t forget the assumption that $80,000 or so is an affordable loan amount, based on the wealthy parents who apparently could easily do without the loan, but take the loan as a liquidity and financial management tactic. It is unlikely that this is the case for most parents who may be considering parent loans for their kid’s college costs.</p>
<p>For someone who just cannot afford the extra $80,000, the value or lack thereof of attending a college that costs that much more is irrelevant, as it is not an option.</p>
<p>There is no planet on which I’d “drive a fabulous car” but tell my kids “state school only.” And I live in a part of the country and a state in which the state flagship is perfectly fine. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t put myself in the poor-house for an elite education necessarily, but H and I have saved and lived well below our means ever since we were first married because it was that high of a priority for me to be able to give our kids that opportunity. It is the biggest thing we’ll ever spend money on - indeed, 2 kids x 4 years at 2 elite schools is more than we paid for our house when we bought it. I’d cut out a lot of luxuries before I’d cut out spending on their education.</p>
<p>Just for the record re: my earlier post…in responding to the original question wherein the poster suggested parents should BORROW $30 k a year, aka $120,000, I wasn’t suggesting that parents shouldn’t assist their children in obtaining the best education they can afford. </p>
<p>I was responding to the sense from the post that it was not viewed to be much money, “only” a 30-year payback and that anything short of private/expensive schools was vastly inferior. </p>
<p>There seem to be two extremes referenced generally on college confidential. In one, evidenced on the fin aid thread, there are a lot of stories about parents who won’t contribute – at all. …As if its entirely someone else’s responsibility. On the other end, there is a sense of occasional student entitlement, or the sense that somehow paying $50k a year or more via virtually usury rates (eg Parent Plus or unsub) is vital and constitutes some mandatory right of passage to adulthood.</p>
<p>I don’t agree with either extreme in practice. That doesn’t mean my son and I did not have lots of joint skin in the game or that he attended a “mediocre” school. But it did mean he chose a great school with a substantial scholarship over a comparable program at NYU. As a result, today, he has moderate debt and I have moderately reduced reserves of capital, but nobody’s paying the equivalent of a mortgage with nowhere to live :)</p>
<p>The OP makes statements as fact which are actually just his opinion. Not everyone would agree with the above; they may feel their student can get just as much benefit in every sense from attending an Honors college in a quality state school rather than being in the bottom 25% of an allegedly superior one.</p>
We did exactly the same thing. We scrimped & saved over the years so our D could have choices of colleges. Because of this, we didn’t have to take out loans, although we were prepared with a HELOC if it had become necessary. When it came to choosing schools, though, we did consider costs along with the academic level of each school, and immediately discarded the school that was on par with others she had gotten into but which offered no merit aid.</p>
<p>She took out the maximum amount of student Stafford loans so that she’d “have skin in the game.” Since her experience in college was as much as we could have hoped for, including her academic achievements, we have taken over her loan payments until she is able to do so comfortably.</p>
<p>But would we have taken out loans that were more than we could afford? No. Learning rational financial decision-making is part of the college process. She was part of those discussions and understood.</p>
<p>What do you think about Honors college in a quality state school vs. one of top 10 or so students in class (junior year phi beta kappa)of an allegedly superior one, considered by those in the field to have one of top departments in student’s area of interest? </p>
<p>I understand some parents literally can’t afford it, though in my scenario, probably it becomes more affordable across all income groups. What about for those parents whose income makes them full-pay but current financial situation would require loans?</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, I think it comes down to the choices we make and experiences we have. Since dh and I are products of state schools and have had great careers, we see state schools as an excellent choice for our kids.</p>
<p>That we live in a crappy house in the best school district is a lovely personal choice. I may happen to drive a (to me) fabulous car, I also just drove a very fun car right into the ground. Our family vacations consist of camping and biking, neither of which generally involve exotic or expensive locations. We live well below our means too with the comfort of a well funded retirement on the horizon - one that required a great deal of set aside wants and dreams over the last two decades.</p>
<p>But I don’t see the wisdom of spending $60k/kid/year times two for my kids’ education. That strikes me as wasteful and privileged - again, it comes down to different values for different folks. The state schools served us well and our kids will get an excellent education there if that is where they ultimately go, for half the cost or less. I’m always open to the kids choosing a private school if the per year cost is within that ballpark. But that idea comes with an undercurrent of “really, you want to go THERE instead of a state school?” because we see the state school as the best choice.</p>
<p>Ordinarily, I wouldn’t quote such a large part of a post, but this is so right that I did.</p>
<p>My DW and I saved quite a bit when the kids were small, at a time when doing so wasn’t so easy. Due to hard work and no small measure of luck, we’re now in a position to fund college (and an expensive private HS) from cash flow. We have fabulous cars also, but they’d be gone in a heartbeat if it were a choice of them or the kids’ education.</p>
<p>FWIW, both of our families funded our UG education, and the thought never crossed our minds that we’d do anything else for our children. If we couldn’t afford it, we would not do it, but to have it and hoard it, well, I’d be ashamed.</p>
<h1>387^I think many families are huge supporters of their state schools and prefer their children attend. The issue of cost is pretty much beside the point. The fact privates are so expensive just a sort of curious fact. That seems to me a different discussion than “is a private worth some parental debt?” The general rule in my extended family has been kids go to “our” state school, meet future life-long local friends, marry someone local. Stay put. I see the wisdom of this path and respect it. It is a very different culture than what we usually see on this board. imho</h1>
<p>alh, My kids both went to state schools but not our local one. One school was almost 3 hours from us, the other 5 hours from us. And they met kids from all over the state and country . About 30% are OOS. Not all state schools are alike. But many kids also do go to our more local state schools too and of course community college.</p>
<p>think a lot of families are huge supporters of their state schools and prefer their children to attend regardless of lower costs of privates. That seems to me a different discussion than “is a private worth some parental debt?” The general rule in my extended family has been kids go to “our” state school, meet future life-long local friends, marry someone local. Stay put.</p>
<p>I agree that this happens. One of my siblings insists that his kids attend rather close (up to 2-3 hours away) schools. One of his kids got a fab scholarship OOS that would have been MUCH cheaper than the school he’s attending, but his parents insisted that he stay instate. They like the fact that he can come home at a moment’s notice and attend many family functions. </p>
<p>In our own case, both of our kids started in engineering which doesn’t require a pricey education, so they took big scholarships at our flagship. Older son (changed to math) went on the PhD program and the other went on to med school (which we’re paying for). We’ve gotten off a lot cheaper than expected because the PhD was fully funded. We’ll help the older son buy a home, since his entire post-high-school education has cost us less than $10k…lol</p>
<p>There are many majors that really don’t require a pricey education. I wouldn’t think of spending $60k per year if my child wanted to become a RN or teacher. Those are admirable professions, surely, but not worth a $250k education when a fine one could be had for $100k (or less with merit). And, for those who are premed, if a fine education can be had for $25k (or less) per year, why not? Med school is expensive and too many kids have huge debt from that because parents spent all they could on undergrad.</p>
<p>And they met kids from all over the state and country . About 30% are OOS. Not all state schools are alike.</p>
<p>this is true. While many publics mostly only have instate kids, some do draw from the entire country. My kids’ flagship has many OOS students. This year’s frosh class is 60% OOS. Last year’s frosh class was 55% OOS. The entire school will soon be 50% OOS. That’s rare for a flagship in a good-sized (geographically) state.</p>
While I agree that people have different values, and that they have the right to their own values, that does nothing to persuade me that their values are just as good as my own. As some others have mentioned, my parents sacrificed to pay for my college (and professional school) education, so I couldn’t conceive of not doing the same thing for my own children. People who don’t do that lack appropriate values, in my opinion. Maybe that’s not so many people, but it’s just the extreme version of the “I’ve got mine” attitude that I think is too prevalent among our generation.</p>
<p>Not really sure what you are asking and why you are asking me. My point is simply this: There are families who may not view Elite College X as superior. In that case, they are sending their kid to what they believe to be an equally good institution. It may have zero to do with being unwilling to spend x plus dollars, but more to do with “why would I spend x plus for something of at best equal value to Public U Honors program at only X dollars?” Now you or I may not agree with their opinion of Public U, but it still has ZERO to do with their love for their children or their commitment to giving them a quality education.</p>
<p>My own D was accepted to some “elite” privates. We even had a deposit down at one of them and she had selected a roommate. She was later taken off the waiting list of an OOS public which had actually been her first choice. She jumped at the chance to attend and graduated Phi Beta Kappa after a fabulous 4 years and a great education. She was offered several spots in graduate programs which often favor candidates a couple of years beyond undergrad in terms of research and life experience, so her education absolutely served her well. I can’t deny that we were happy to have saved a boatload of money all while giving her the college experience of her dreams, though we would have happily paid the price of the other school had that been her desire. She is a bloom where she is planted type and would probably have done well wherever she went.</p>
<p>D2, on the other hand, would absolutely not be well served by being in the bottom tier of her reach schools. She gets completely stressed out and overwhelmed. She’d be the one to have a breakdown, have to withdraw, and who knows what would follow. It was in her best interest to be in the Honors program at an in-state Public U which is admittedly inferior to some of the elites she could have gotten into by the skin of her teeth. But in her case we had to consider so much more than on-paper factors. There are other families like ours, I am sure, who are making decisions based on a whole set of considerations which have nothing to do with how much money they are willing to shell out to demonstrate “their love” for their kids. You can’t judge peoples’ decisions from the outside.</p>
I think you can make some judgments. I have little trouble judging the situation alh described, for example. It’s always possible that there is some secret good reason people do apparently bad things, of course.</p>
<p>^^^^Well, I guess you would judge us as doing a “bad thing.” You’d see we have a big house and a second home, the ability to pay for “elite” while actually sending our kid to a less selective school than she could have attended. You would think we weren’t willing to “sacrifice” in order to get her the “best” education money can buy. But you would be completely ignorant of some of the very very good reasons we made the decision we did, and all of them have to do with our love for our D and our concern for her well being, which goes so much beyond which institution prints her diploma.</p>
<p>I don’t think I would make such a judgment based solely on where your kid goes to school–although I might be curious. Judgment would come with more information, like statements people make (such as the thread we had about the person who said it was “stupid” to send kids to an expensive school). Also, there are plenty of people (such as relatives) that one knows well enough to make pretty good judgments.</p>
<p>I think Nrds is describing the same idea we had: out of love- and respect- and with a really hard look at our kids, more than what they did in high school- what we emphasized was the college(s) where they would be empowered. (For us, with the caveat that we had to be able to afford the final choice, that aid was good.) That’s more than a knee jerk reaction to US News. Or assumptions about what they can- or can’t- get at certain tiers.</p>
<p>For some kids- bright, motivated kids- the right choice may be State or some not so known LAC. Or some, who don’t know what their path is, may need the jumbo sized variety that comes at schools bigger than LACs. Or some may be fired by the variety of leadership options at one versus another. It helps to get past the notion that US News tells us what’s best.</p>
<p>It’s nice if some families have all the funds saved for any price out there (whether this is a matter of tradition or duty- or just having more money in the first place.) Nice if they are in a position to continue to help them past college. Not so nice if, at the other extreme, parents refuse support. But most of us fall in between. Making hard choices. Hopefully, making wise choices about the programs and what we can afford. The examples at the extremes distract us from the questions about loans, how much and how long- really, about the extent to which we can make these sacrifices.</p>
<p>You can love your kids and believe in them and feel it is a family responsibility to pay what we can-- and still not be in a strong financial position to do so. NOT because you are wasting money or selfish or didn’t properly look forward-- but because that’s the way it is.</p>
<p>Likewise, you can take the steps to get them the best education- and still miss some of the other things that make them whole and good. All this is more complicated.</p>
<p>My parents took out loans to send all three of their kids to private colleges. In her early 50’s my mother got Parkinson’s disease and she has now had it for 19 years. They lost their house paying for the long term care (help with dressing, bathing, eating, taking mediation, etc) that she needs 24-7 and which is not covered by insurance (most long term care insurance only covers 3 years of limited care). If I could go back and attend a less expensive college so that they could have the money to help them survive their retirement years at a decent standard of living, I would. I’m sure my brother and sister would agree. We all have fairly good jobs now but I don’t think the name of the (very good) colleges we attended has given us any more earning power than we would have gotten if we had earned the same degrees from state colleges or accepted the scholarships some of us were offered to less elite schools.</p>
<p>I know more than a few people who bought their kids cars for their 16th birthdays. I’m not talking BMW’s, just “normal” everyday cars. Meanwhile, they don’t have the money to send their kids to a really good college that the kid otherwise “deserves” (in the sense that he’s been a good kid, excellent student, etc.). That strikes <em>me</em> as wasteful and privileged to spend the money so your kid can have a car, but not for a really good education. My kids didn’t have cars (and still don’t) – but they have an excellent educational investment. To me, that’s a preferable set of values. </p>
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<p>I agree. Both H and I were fortunate enough to have our college educations paid for. It was a gift we appreciated immensely. I can’t conceive of not doing the same thing for my kids, to the best of my abilities. If I couldn’t, I couldn’t, and so it goes, but there wouldn’t be a “fabulous car” for me until their college education was in the bank.</p>