One thing I feel it’s important to add: many colleges have a suggested HS preparation that exceeds HS graduation requirements. AFAIK, few colleges make these recommendations without careful consideration. So the student that says, “I think MIT would rather me take Differential Equations instead of Spanish 2” is effectively saying that MIT doesn’t know what they’re talking about, and should pursue that strategy AYOR.
6 Likes
I completely agree with this. One thing I’ll add is the use of the word “strategy” here. For some (many? most?) high schoolers, they are choosing strategically and not necessarily based on what they would “want”. It’s useful to me to keep that in mind. I mean, MIT says “apply sideways”, which implies the student should choose what they want, which might mean taking Diff Eq instead of Spanish 2. But then, the reality is that MIT wants Spanish 2. So somewhere there’s a balance of taking what you want and doing what you want versus taking and doing things strategically to get an outcome you want.
2 Likes
Obviously an unending conversation, but for me there is a distinction between getting to that point because: (A) that school has the substantive things you want, but a lot of other people want those things too, so the school can be very selective; or (B) wanting to get admitted to that school precisely because it is very selective and so you think it will prove something to your peers, your parents, your parents’ peers, or so on if you are admitted.
I think with arts kids, they may end up applying to arts programs that in fact are very selective in their own ways, and that is fine as an example of (A).
And some of those arts programs are at institutions which also have very selective non-arts programs, and that is still fine as an example of (A).
But I think it gets problematic when a kid is thinking like (B) and ends up not developing their true interests, in arts or otherwise, because they believe that maximizes their chances of getting such an admission.
1 Like
To me that isn’t a surprise because there is a VERY long-standing association between STEM and VPAs. There are actual brain science reasons for that, and of course I know I don’t need to tell you there are fields like architecture where that combination is basically integral. But the bottom line is there are plenty of institutions where both of these things are well-represented. Like I basically live down the street from Carnegie Mellon, and it is not at all unique. In fact in addition to privates, many publics also have strong such programs, including Pitt which is then just down the street from CMU. And so on.
Anyway, point being I think for the vast majority of possible combinations of interests and aptitudes a kid might have, in the US we are going to have a long list of institutions possibly suitable for that kid. Practical things may cut the list way down, but in terms of suitable programs, those tend to be pretty abundant.
So I am personally never very worried about kids who are thinking along these lines.
1 Like
Yeah, most colleges are trying their best to explain what preparation kids need in order to be a good bet to thrive at their college. It isn’t about arbitrary hoops to jump through, they benefit as an institution when the kids they enroll do well there.
So to the extent some kids (or parents) are trying to circumvent those recommendations, they are probably not doing themselves any favors. For one thing, it might not work, as in the college in question might see that and act accordingly. But even if it did work, do you really want to go to a college where you may not be well-prepared to actually thrive there?
Seems like Cooper Union is an archetype of such a school.
2 Likes
For many students here, wouldn’t “wanting to get admitted to that school precisely because it is very selective and so you think it will prove something to your peers, your parents, your parents’ peers, or so on if you are admitted” be “the substantive thing” that the student wants?
In other words, prestige / exclusivity / selectivity is a major factor in the student’s view of “fit”.
I am admittedly using “substantive” in a judgey way.
Like, I have analogized the pleasure you get from admissions to a highly selective college that you think will impress your peers, parents, and so on to a sugar rush. It typically doesn’t take long for that rush to fade away. Particularly once you get started. It is an unfortunate fact of peer competitions that whenever you reset your peers, it tends to start all over. So, everyone at Famous U got admitted to Famous U–now what? There is always more to compete for, and the people who thought just getting admitted to Famous U would be the end of all that often just get right back into it.
To me, substantive means things like the actual education you will get, the experiences you will share, the actual stuff that people look back on fondly long after college is over. Again, highly selective colleges are usually highly selective precisely because they offer a lot that a lot of kids want for good reasons, so there is nothing wrong with being one of those kids.
But if you are thinking merely being admitted to or enrolling at a highly selective college will make you durably happy, that in fact it will set you up for life, well, that’s probably not going to work out like you are imagining. Hopefully it will be a good experience anyway. But it isn’t always.
2 Likes
Such an interesting thread! As a parent of a child who takes 2 music classes (advanced jazz band and advanced symphonic band), he’s definitely expressed frustration that these choices have “nerfed” his GPA because they are not weighted. They get in the way of his ability to take weighted electives (e.g. an AP psych or environmental science or something like that) and have also interfered with a least one weighted core class due to scheduling issues. And it has certainly eliminated any study periods and some semesters he has had to forego a lunch period to take other requirements (gym, etc).
On the other hand, while they do have to perform pieces that are graded by the teacher, I do think the majority of the grade is straight participation in the many extracurricular concerts, marching band practices, parades, and football halftime shows (in marching band uniform or the concert black). So while a decent time commitment outside of class, the participation alone boosts your grade a lot (as long as you meet the dress code!).
So while it has left him with less rigor and possibly a lower weighted GPA, it has been meaningful to him at this stage of his life. He’s not interested in pursuing music in college or as a career but maybe it will be a lifelong hobby and that’s not nothing, either.
Finally, just to add he’s very fortunate our district values music and arts and has robust offerings for all students. I really feel for kids living in districts where options have been cut or eliminated.
3 Likes
I don’t think any parent of a band, theater, or even robotics kid regrets the hs experience of the performance/team class, just ruing the hit to the GPA (and perhaps the scheduling conflicts that so often require a choice between band and AP Chemistry if they are offered at the same time). Why should a kid who prefers theater to physics have a lower GPA because someone considers physics harder and thus you must be smarter to have taken it?
For my kids, they took the classes they wanted to take and that was fine. Neither was gunning for MIT or Stanford. My math and science kid was very young for her class, went to 3 high schools because of my job changes, and didn’t have one DE or AP credit entering college, yet graduated cum laude in 8 semesters in an engineering program and has been employed since graduation. She plodded through the courses in high school and then in college and it was all okay.
My niece was driven to school by a boy who was a few years older. He had a perfect GPA but wasn’t the Val because as a sophomore, he didn’t take the one AP class sophomores were allowed to take and the other person in his class with a perfect GPA did, so he could never ‘catch up’ with the GPA. This guy did just fine in life, got into a lot of top colleges and went to Dartmouth. Just seemed unfair he didn’t graduate first in his class because of one class he wasn’t interested in.
1 Like
I would not get worked up about minor GPA implications of choosing an arts course over a weighted class. That is why admissions officers review transcripts, not just the GPA. I can’t imagine many scenarios where ongoing and dedicated involvement in the arts would be a negative in a holistic application review.
7 Likes
This topic was automatically closed 180 days after the last reply. If you’d like to reply, please flag the thread for moderator attention.