-you’ll find those in the Cal Poly SLO threads, where 5 years of English is recommended for admission.
I thought we were discussing music and other arts. Top schools admits students with strong extracurricular music and talent. If really strong, even when rigor is not top notch.
The topic is in the class, not EC level - and it’s more related to what @ucbalumnus thought people here believed - but I don’t believe that to be true based on all the feedback:
Why are visual or performing arts in high school not considered “academic” by many around here?
I think there are two questions that seem to be being addressed in this thread. (1) Should the arts be valued? (2) Why do people on CC call the arts “non academic”? Regarding the first, it seems clear to me that the overwhelming majority of CC posters believe the arts should be highly valued. Regarding the second, I think a few posters have plausibly explained why arts are sometimes called “non academic” despite being valued by those very posters - because the schools themselves designate them as non academic electives or because the colleges only require 1 year as h.s. preparation or because the high school requires 0 years to graduate or because the arts classes don’t get calculated in their high school GPA, or because the arts classes don’t offer AP designation or because the arts classes at their high school are very easy and non rigorous and “non academic,” or because of any number of other institutional reasons. But not because the arts aren’t valued by posters on CC.
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My STEM kid had “playing in the college orchestra” as one of three criteria for choosing a college. It was THE hardest to find for a non music major. But she did find a great college with strong stem and she did play in the college orchestra for four years. This would not have been possible had she not had strong ensemble experience prior to college, which she had both in high school, and in a Precollege program. She still played her instrument even now…many years after HS graduation. But more important, she really appreciates the arts!
Yeah, I can’t account for the perceptions some people might have, but in S24’s feederish HS, a decent percentage of the admits to the most selective colleges were very good but not absolute top students, and then standout artists. It was not as formalized as being a recruited athlete, but it felt broadly similar to me in that you apparently needed the level of demonstrated talent they were looking for–which is reportedly basically conservatory-level at the most selective colleges. But if you could bring that level of demonstrated talent to the table, then you could potentially get admitted under modestly more generous academic standards.
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I have observed that even the notch below “conservatory level” is highly valued by the colleges if it’s coupled with some meaningful community service. Not “I taught my younger sister how to play guitar”. But a sustained and successful program- a weekly jam session at the local senior center which has now become a 5 day a week program where kids from all the high school’s in the area book a regular performance slot– that kid was described to me as a “capable” musician (i.e. not conservatory material) but an awesome organizer/leader; adding a music track to the after school program at the Boys/Girls Club and bringing in non-traditional genres– finding teachers who play instruments from all over the world so the kids don’t say “Music is for old white guys”; etc. Good musicians but fantastic citizens!
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Back to the OPs question…In our HS I would say the intro level arts classes (needed to fill the one year arts requirement) are non-academic. As an anecdote –when my non-musical son took HS chorus he showed up to class on time, tried his best, came dressed properly for concerts, etc. and got nice grades. I feel like the chorus director understood that not everyone had talent and looked to make chorus a pleasant, relatively stress-free place in an academically stressed HS. That was so appreciated (and S actually took an extra semester of chorus to fill a hole in his schedule).
That chorus class was not academic at all. However, I do believe it would be reasonable to consider upper level arts classes such as APMusic as a non-core academic class.
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This was so true in my kids’ school that it was one of the main reasons administration cited for doing away with class ranking. Our school has a robust championship music program, but so many top students were dropping out of it simply because they felt they had to in order to cram in enough APs to stay competitive with class rank.
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That makes a lot of sense!
As I would understand it, you are basically talking about someone who is leveraging their artistic interest and talents for the benefit of others in way that is likely to contribute to high “personal” ratings (or however the highly-selective holistic-review college in question talks about such things).
As a general observation, I think in at least certain circles, there is far too much emphasis on trying to stand out as an applicant in academicky ways, including academicky activities (which is extremely hard and only seems to work for a small fraction of their admitted classes), and not nearly enough on ways you can try to truly stand out as an applicant with highly valued personal traits. Of course there are a lot of check-boxy things people try (“starting a non-profit” included), but you are describing a person who is actually showing a real interest in their community in a way that is a natural outgrowth of their other passions.
When you think about a jaded admissions officer trying to figure out who will actually be the sort of person who keeps doing that sort of thing in college, not to get into college anymore, but because they actually are self-motivated, why would they NOT be interested in that sort of person? I know I would.
Not to keep beating the same drum, but I really think this is underscoring that giving kids opportunities for genuine development as a creative human being is not really separable from other forms of development. Obviously not every story will end up in a highly selective college, but that isn’t the important part! The important part is how great these kids you are describing sound, and how much this is hopefully setting up habits that will help them have more fulfilling lives long after college.
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But could the same be said for some courses in other “academic” subjects? For example, non-honors/AP/etc. social studies electives (or sometimes requirements like civics and economics) may not be very academically rigorous at all.
I think the terms academic and non-academic are very different from rigorous and non-rigorous. I think you can have all of the combinations like “academic non-rigorous” and “non-academic rigorous”, etc.
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Agree with @beefeater Even the less demanding/introductory level of academic classes such as the ones you noted above (at least at our HS) do in fact demand writing papers, studying for exams, etc. It is a way higher bar than showing up for a chorus concert dressed in black clothing. YMMV.
Again, S was grateful for the low key and non-talent based introductory arts classes available at the kids HS so I’m not disparaging them. And as I said, the upper level classes would need to be considered differently.
OP was asking for opinion and this is mine based on our HS. Fine if anyone has different thoughts and experiences.
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But were they given an GPA boost (considered honors or AP level)? My hs that had no AP and gave no boost for honors classes (you just got to move faster through the same algebra or geometry book) had regular band (which was the basic band) and also a higher level (balanced) band that also filled in with the orchestra. We had choir and then some other groups you had to try out for. No extra GPA boost.
I think that’s the question, whether school give extra GPA boosts (or even include them in the GPA at all) for the non-math, science, English and social studies courses, and then the thread went on to consider whether colleges redo GPAs to take out those courses (if colleges consider class rank, the honors band and theater kids could get credit for higher rank because of those classes).
I went to school from 5th grade on with a guy who is now a doctor. There was no question he was smart and did well in all core courses, but he was gangly and awkward and struggled in the required PE classes. He did not graduate first in our class even though he’d taken several math and science courses at the university (not common at that time at our HS). Honestly, he needed the required PE classes for the social aspect, and those may not have been why he wasn’t 1st in our class because you could easily get an A as grade was based on attendance, improvement, and a written test.
Honors wind symphony was an honors course. Music theory was an AP course. Music technology was an honors course. So yes, they gave a GPA boost.
But I am going to say…our kids would have taken these music courses without a GPA boost. They valued what these courses offered them…and so did we.
But then…we weren’t chasing the highest weighted GPA. We were fans of having a kid who took a variety of courses of their interest.
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I’ll come clean on that one. It was a poor choice of words and I have edited. However, my main message was questioning doubling up on arts at the expense of another core subject. And that is a message I consistently say when a user wants to double up on math or science at the expense of foreign language or social science.
And for the record, I am pro-arts and I took 4 full years of arts encompassing visual arts, theatre, and music, including AP Music Theory, AP Art History, and AP Studio Art 2-D.
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For college admissions purpose, I think the “safest” choice is almost always to make sure you are progressing at a reasonable pace (reasonable for you) in all five cores, all four years. And then you can do whatever other electives you like (subject to any additional non-core admissions requirements, like in the California university system). This is going to fulfill the expectations of the broadest range of selective colleges.
However, “safest” in this sense isn’t always best for every kid. For some kids, it may well make sense for them to move closer to just whatever their state requires for graduation in some core areas, and then take more classes in whatever really interests them (could be a specific core area, could be another “elective” academic area, could be arts, or so on).
A possible consequence of that approach is your college application list might reflect that sort of focus as well, and not include some of the colleges typically looking for broader approaches. But there is nothing wrong with that if such an educational path works for you as an individual.
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The sad part is - a kid may really love the arts - but throws it away because they are gunning for whatever school - and feel the “arts” type class will hold them back. Sure, they can do stuff outside of school, but maybe not being exposed never gets them to that point.
Some of these “arts” type things might last forever - kind of like typing, which I took. I still remember Mr. Rarity - F-F-F-F, H-H-H-H, F-H-F-H.
Probably the most useful class I ever took. Not sure if it’s a thing anymore (typing class) - but if it was, is the kid gunning for top 10 going to take it? Nope.
I don’t recall my kids hs mandating the arts as a class - but it wouldn’t be such a terrible thing.
But a kid is going to make up in their mind:
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I want to gun for the top and I need the most rigor
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I’m going to where I want (UTK or Alabama) and I’ll take what I want and for them it will be good enough
There are probably many here who say that “where I want” is something highly selective.
I guess this also depends what you want in a college. My kid’s transcript is a little lopsided - clear lean towards STEM and VPAs and less towards history/social sciences/LOTE - but as it turned out, for the schools they were applying for that didn’t seem to be a problem - even the ones that (for the particular course) did put some emphasis on the latter grouping. They weren’t applying to T20s /top tier though.