<p>fundingfather - going back to the analagy, paragraph one is not accurate (consensus of all the experts was not at all there) and I should have used a better term “irrefutable” data, paragraph two is sadly a concern brought about by the believers of paragraph one and even John Kerry said he would never pull out, he would actually increase the troops and upgrade the strategy to make sure that the war could be won.</p>
<p>I just don’t think we should use the tragic deaths of our marines and soldiers for political purposes. The Marines in Iraq are volunteers and all knew that they were putting themselves at risk.</p>
<p>“Garland: I wasn’t being condescending - just wondering why a person you haven’t seen in years would communicate with you immediately after the death of her son. Or, if she didn’t, how you could insult her and her son by divining what she was thinking?”</p>
<p>Exactly. You assmed I would insult her and her son by divining what she was thinking. I did not and would not do that. As I said, I spoke out of knowledge. If you do not believe this, so be it. That’s all I have to say.</p>
<p>No one wants to insult dead soldiers or their parents here. I am not sure how pointing out the failure of our leadership in creating and carrying out this war does that at all. I agree that using them for political purposes would be wrong, and I wish the President would agree with us.</p>
<p>Putting their lives at rick, yes, but to not be supported well by their own government, to have to work side by side with CONTRACTERS (mercenaries) who are paid 5 times as much, to see the situation getting, worse, not better due to poor planning and a poor understanding of what the soldiers were sent into.</p>
<p>The soldiers were sent into do something political, omly they did not know it…our job as citizens is to question what our government does and to make sure they are doing right by our soldiers, and to make surem when they come home they are taken care of- the hurt, the disabled, the wounded, the stressed, the jobless, the laidoff, the dads who haven’t ever seen their babies…</p>
<p>This is poltical, and if we don’t step up and question our government, then you can be sent over. I don’t know how old all you war supporters are, but if you really believe, enlist, go over. If you are looking at college, you are just the right age. </p>
<p>I think our soldiers should not be there, it is a bad war, but they are, and as such, our GOVERNMENT needs to do a much better job of taking care of them. And, to see the veterans living on the streets, that is a disgrace and our GOVERMENT needs to step up and take care of business.</p>
<p>FundingFather, you have college age children I assume. Have they enlisted in this war? If it is such a good thing for us to be there, I would assume you would want your own children there fighting. And the rest that love this war, go, fight, enlist, encourage your children to enlist.</p>
<p>Please, don’t wish anyone elses children or parents over there. If you pray, pray for everyones safe return soon.</p>
<p>I am thinking about all those soldiers, all those widows, all those disabled and wounded.</p>
<p>I get angry at those that say, wow this war is a good thing, and then keep their own selves out of it cause, gee, they won’t go</p>
<p>Mini; </p>
<p>“The other reality is that the number of folks who have died in Iraq since 2003 is a mere fraction of those killed by the destruction of the wastewater treatment plants, coupled with the embargo on simple pharmaceuticals”</p>
<p>Thank you so much, Mini. It drives me crazy to see this ignored in virtually all discussion of the Iraq Wars.</p>
<p>citygirlsmom - I agree with all you have said. It is just like Viet Nam, the biggest supporters of the war and the government leaders made sure their kids were safe or they simply didn’t have anyone in harms way. How easy to call it “patriotism” and “duty” when your family isn’t at risk and your financial investments are protected. If my son has to risk his life for the US, please let it only be because all other options for solving a REAL CRISIS have been exhausted. This was not a real crisis and clearly all other options were not exhausted. Where have all the real leaders gone, the true statesmen who believed in our role as problem solvers and who acted as resources not instigators.</p>
<p>One other comment - the only reason why this administration has not faced enormous public outcry is that the public does not see or get the “real” news anymore. During the Viet Nam war we saw scenes from the war nightly, it was front page news daily, the deaths were reported as the top news on local and world news stations and Americans were horrified. Americans could not get up every morning and pretend that the war was not there and go on without considering the carnage and broader political problems. Not today - today the top news is who Brad Pitt is sleeping with or how some cow was trapped in a ravine…one has to go looking for serious news now by seeking out programs like NPR or the BBC. Millions of Americans have grown up never reading a newspaper or watching commercialized or “entertainment” oriented news! If this war was in our faces, the way that the Viet Nam war was, I believe there would be much greater dissatisfcation.</p>
<p>“The other reality is that the number of folks who have died in Iraq since 2003 is a mere fraction of those killed by the destruction of the wastewater treatment plants, coupled with the embargo on simple pharmaceuticals”</p>
<p>Thank you so much, Mini. It drives me crazy to see this ignored in virtually all discussion of the Iraq Wars."</p>
<p>It’s absolutely crucial, not only because genocide – the attempt to wipe out an entire generation of Iraqis - always needs to be remembered, but also because you can’t understand the attitude of Iraqis in general toward the U.S. without it.</p>
<p>We have treated them badly for years, we shake their rulers hands, gave him the weapons, embargo them and suddenly we expect them to say, Yippee, the Americans are here…</p>
<p>I am thinking about that mom in Texas at Crawford. That is a mom</p>
<p>What about depleted uranium ammunition? That is a travesty. And our government thinks its okay to use them, even though they make our soldiers very ill.</p>
<p>This is the most useless thread I’ve read in such a long while here. It makes me see red when I read most of what mini has written. For one, your opinions, no matter how badly I disagree with them, are allowed here due to the men & women who have died in previous wars to give you the rights to pay your bill for internet service, to get on your computer that you so happily hopped down to the store and purchased, right after you put gas in your freely purchased car and ate your dinner that you chose from the fully stocked grocery store. It never ceases to amaze me that a few folks can spout their views so freely and then turn around and bite the hand thats taken care of you. So be it that you don’t agree with what soldiers do. And so be it that you don’t support them. They don’t want your credit. They get enough from me and mine when we say thanks for watching the wall. I have to wonder if you’d be able to sit there in your nice comfortable home typing your angry small views at the world if some other country took us over & were to come into that nice home and drag you out, shoot your children, then set you and your house aflame and did untold horror to you. Would you want someone to come to your aid? I know I would! Your parents or Grandparents must have not had any struggles to share with you as a child to make you appreciate much of your freedoms. I could let you borrow mine. They’d tell you some horrors. I resent disrepect of any kind but especially to our soldiers. Yes, you did not ask them to DIE for you. If given the choice, they wouldn’t die at all. They do what they do for this country and don’t flatter yourself that they do what they do for people like you and they know you’re out there. They have a higher calling. To protect and to serve. No one in their right mind agrees with everything in politics or war but to blah blah blah about what you support or don’t, c’mon give me a break. Why don’t you get off your computer chair & get on over to Iraq and help those poor people. Build the schools, get them clean water. Do you have the guts for it? Don’t argue with something lame like we’re over there killing people and we don’t need to be there. I look for more than just the evening news reports. There is some actual good going on in the world. It was one of your many rights to vote into office who you thought would prevent wars. Don’t know if you realize this but we’re always going to need our soldiers to watch our ass. I got news for you too. War is hell. Our government could do better. The other countries could do better. Yep, we gotta watch the oil supply. When push comes to shove, and its finally figured out that there are several rights and several wrongs, all we have left is respect of each other. Whether we agree with each others politics or not. I promise Mr. Moderator, I won’t blow my top again. But just as mini was allowed to pour her views all over this thread, so should I be allowed to pour mine. After all, my family members died to give me this right! God Bless America and my son who serves her!</p>
<p>Money woes on home front
Call-ups often mean lower pay and hardship for National Guard and Reserve troops.
By Brad Knickerbocker | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
ASHLAND, ORE. As the war in Iraq grinds through its third year, one number keeps going up: the number of men and women in Reserve and National Guard units mobilized for active duty. Last week, their ranks swelled again to 139,218. </p>
<p>But these citizen-soldiers are drawing not only tough assignments - they represent some 40 percent of all American troops in Iraq and, so far this month, two-thirds of US fatalities. They also find themselves burdened with financial problems back home. The challenge has become so common that some critics call it the “patriot penalty.”</p>
<p>TOUGH TIMES: Staff Sgt. Steven Cummings in Milan, Mich., fell $15,000 in debt during his 14-month stint in Iraq with the Army National Guard.</p>
<p>Spc. Blaine Hall of the Army National Guard in Washington State is one example.</p>
<p>Because of government red tape and the on-again, off-again orders for call-up and deployment, he was unable to obtain the government loan that would have allowed him to train someone else to run his bookstore in Gig Harbor, Wash., during the year he spent in Iraq.</p>
<p>“I understand the possibility for deployment can occur at anytime with little notice, and that it is our responsibility to keep our households and business ready for deployment,” he told a US Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee hearing at the Army National Guard Armory in Seattle last week. But in the end, he said, “I was forced to close my business and file for bankruptcy.”</p>
<p>Staff Sgt. Kevin Romanelli of the Washington State National Guard, who served in Afghanistan, told the hearing of his difficulties in getting medical disability payments. As a result, Sergeant Romanelli said, his family of five is unable to make ends meet.</p>
<p>“I am constantly contacted by bill collectors,” he said. “The most difficult thing for me is the hardship that has been imposed on my family.”</p>
<p>A financial hit</p>
<p>Government studies show that about half of all reservists and National Guard members report a loss of income when they go on active duty - typically more than $4,000 a year.</p>
<p>Under federal law, companies must hold the jobs of guardsmen and reservists for when they return from active duty.</p>
<p>Some companies voluntarily make up the pay difference for their employees called to active duty, among them Cummins, DaimlerChrysler, Toyota, Sears, and Raytheon.</p>
<p>But most companies are either unable or unwilling to do this, and for the several thousand self-employed reservists and guardsmen there is no such possibility.</p>
<p>Senior Guard and Reserve officers worry that loss of income and other stresses will impair citizen-soldiers’ ability to fulfill their missions, not to mention discouraging them from reenlisting or signing up in the first place.</p>
<p>In an internal memo to a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff last December, Lt. Gen. James Helmly, chief of the Army Reserve, warned that his command is “rapidly degenerating into a ‘broken’ force.”</p>
<p>In April, Lt. Gen. Roger Schultz, chief of the Army National Guard, told a Senate hearing that a variety of bonuses had brought about “some signs of a turnaround in our recruiting and retention numbers.” But, he added, “We have a long way to go in achieving our year-end strength goals.”</p>
<p>cont:</p>
<p>Relief from the states</p>
<p>According to the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), more than two-thirds of the states provide property-tax or income-tax relief for part-time soldiers ordered to full-time service. Thirty states now cover the gap between the civilian pay and military pay of state government employees whose National Guard or Reserve units are mobilized.</p>
<p>“By contrast,” the CBO reported in May, “the assistance that states offer to reservists’ employers or reservist business owners appears to be very limited.” And for those reservists or guardsmen who are not government employees back home, the penalty can be considerable.</p>
<p>“Bridging the gap between incomes during deployment makes all the difference for families trying to cope with the emotional and financial challenges,” says Rhonda Daniels, who started the Family Bridges Foundation, a support group for families of National Guard members on New York’s Long Island, after her husband’s unit was sent to Iraq.</p>
<p>Tax breaks for firms</p>
<p>Some states - Florida and Pennsylvania among them - have begun offering tax credits to companies that make up the difference in the pay of their employees called to active duty.</p>
<p>But there needs to be a national program of this type, says Rep. Steve Israel (D) of New York, a member of the House Armed Services Committee. Given the disruptions and dangers in their lives now, he says, reservists and guardsmen “shouldn’t have to sacrifice their paychecks as well.”</p>
<p>Representative Israel is sponsoring a bill that would provide a tax credit of up to $15,000 a year for companies that are already making up the salary difference for their National Guard or Reserve employees. The bill also would offer a direct payment of up to $50,000 a year to citizen soldiers on active duty who are self-employed or whose companies aren’t making up the difference. Evan Bayh (D) of Indiana is sponsoring a similar measure in the Senate.</p>
<p>Senator Bayh figures the proposal would cost about $1 billion - less than 2 percent of the $80 billion in extra spending for the war in Iraq and Afghanistan that President Bush earlier this year asked Congress to approve, bringing the total to more than $300 billion."</p>
<p>This is how we treat our soldiers…</p>
<p>bull dog
thank you so much for your very well articulated comments. I am glad to hear someone who so strongly supports the troops. Thank your son also for his service.</p>
<p>Dear Bulldog - I have no idea why you think you know ANYTHING about my parents or grandparents. Suffice it to say that my father was one of the “suicide” corps that hit Normandy - 273 went in, 4 came out alive. Actually, at the time they wrote “3” - they didn’t count my father, who they never managed to evacuate.</p>
<p>I also don’t know why you think you know of anything about my dealings with Iraq, or with anywhere else for that matter. I started working to help them by providing portable wastewater treatment as early as 1996. I hope that at that time you were able to find Ramadi on a map. I rather doubt it, but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. If they are worthy of my help now, they were certainly worthy of my help then, when they were oppressed by Saddam Hussein, 7,000 children were dying each month as a result of the bombing of the wastewater treatment plants and the embargo on simple pharmaceuticals, and contracts hadn’t gone out yet, with my tax dollars, to Halliburton and co. to provide for these needs.</p>
<p>Best way I can support the Americans over there is to get them home as soon as possible, rather than support their continued presence. If you feel differently, that’s your right.</p>
<p>I can understand why some don’t feel we support soldiers when the President isn’t willing to stop his car on the way to a fundraiser to talk to the mother of a man killed in the service of his country. We should all support their safe return.</p>