<p>Certainly the d is happy enough now. Except for the times she wants to vacation in Europe or another expensive place. Or that why didn’t we buy a Mercedes (we drive Fords and Chevrolets). What I am always afraid of, one fine day when they are much older they will realize that </p>
<ol>
<li><p>they cannot sustain the lifestyle which they had grown up in, </p></li>
<li><p>take a good look at their (Asian) peers - friends and cousins galore and realize how far behind their life is in financial security </p></li>
</ol>
<p>then feel unhappy and dis-satisfied</p>
<p>and worse, </p>
<p>blame it on me. Because <em>I</em> didn’t bring them up right. </p>
<p>Honestly that keep me up nights sometimes. I had gotten better but this brings my fears back.</p>
<p>I detect another thread domination (page 1) is on the horizon (by those who feel so inferior in real life that they like to argue the imagined relative superiority of their race online).</p>
<p>In a way, it is interesting, though. Sort of like finding a fossil which can teach us first hand about a less evolved time period in our development as human beings.</p>
<p>Back to the original post…Interesting article. I will put it on my high schooler’s desk in hopes that it will inspire him to study more.</p>
<p>Yes, that is very unpleasant, especially when one grows up in a high achieving family. People do not go into so-called practical majors just for the money, but they don’t want to be behind everyone else.</p>
<p>^ Isn’t he ready to admit that most Asians are smarter than him? I don’t see why not for Jews. Many who think that blacks are less intelligent say that blacks are at least physically stronger, like a “dumb jock” type of stereotype. The physical prowess is enviable, but at least you’re smarter than the guy.
This does not reflect my opinion, it’s just what I’ve observed while reading arguments about race over the Internet. I tend to back out of race discussions because I believe that if an individual deserves to accomplish something enough, they will eventually get it regardless of supposed genetic shortcomings.
Please forgive me, I probably make no damn sense as I stayed up all night last night lol.</p>
<p>I’m afraid it’s impossible to have a thread that relates even tangentially to this subject without having it hijacked by CC’s own “Scientific” Racist Twins, Messrs. Tweedledee and Tweedledum, a/k/a Mr. Payne and dontno.</p>
<p>Of course, they’d never admit that West Indians “do well” academically or otherwise, because that wouldn’t fit their theories.</p>
<p>From personal experience, I can certainly say they do. I know many children of West Indian immigrants who go on to Ivy League and otherwise highly ranked schools. Even if they don’t, they still tend to be academically stronger than many other ethnicities and work harder. Another ethnic group the paper is missing are African immigrants. I read that Africans have a high percentage of people with an academic diploma than even Asians.
Another thing I have observed is that many of these West Indian immigrants do not even come from the cream of the crop of their native country or have any major advantage, but they just instill hard work and discipline to the kids. Just my two cents.</p>
<p>Has anyone read “Outliers” by M. Gladwell? He tackles these questions regarding intellectual, etc. advantages of Asians and the Jews (among other topics). He examines why certain groups of people (and individuals, too) rise to the top. It is an interesting read. I don’t always agree with his conclusions, but I always find him thought provoking.</p>
<p>Smartness doesn’t matter unless you’ve got a reasonably pleasant personality, a sense of humor, and are able to get along with a lot of people. It’s interesting that the people who are most apt to toot their own smartness horns often seem to have significant social deficits, at least based on their forum postings.</p>
<p>The chapter in Outliers about why Asians are better at math was interesting. It’s the only chapter in the book that I’ve read.</p>
<p>PG–I’ll try to summarize what I remember about it…</p>
<p>Asians from rice-growing cultures grow up with the idea that personal effort leads directly to more success (increased rice yield), so are more likely to put out personal effort. Plus they are persistent–when they don’t get the answer to a math problem right away, they keep at it until they do–they feel that they WILL get the answer if they just work harder and longer at it.</p>
<p>One interesting tidbit: when the national math tests are given, a long, involved survey is also part of the experience. He said that you could predict how the kids from different countries would do on the math test by seeing how well and completely they filled out the survey. The results correlated! The kids wouldn’t even have to take the math test.</p>
<p>Personal perseverance and drive…as you said in your page 1 post, PG.</p>
<p>Thanks for that summary, ellemenope.<br>
“Outliers” is a worthwhile read for anyone interested in this topic, don’t you think?
I listened to it on disc.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl - I don’t think the topic is about any one individual. I don’t distill anyone is trying to make themselves feel superior. </p>
<p>I would rather live in a world where we do not give any entitlements or identify anyone in a formal or official way by race or national origin. </p>
<p>But inasmuch as Government in particular (either indirectly or directly) parses out benefits based on pigmentation and appearance, the racial issue always remains relevant. </p>
<p>The IQ differences Mr. Payne points out are real and in no way make him a racist. </p>
<p>However, I don’t like IQ discussions very much because they detract from the notion that a rising tide lifts all boats, which I think is the case. </p>
<p>I think the problems in the main in two key minority communities in this country are cultural. And I think the cultural problems are more intractable than any genetic ones - not helped along by a wider political culture that fails to challenge them out of a condescending fear of being racist. So, while some groups that do better undoubtedly have a leg up because of higher average IQ’s, I don’t think it helpful to focus on it. </p>
<p>What I would like to see in the troubled groups is some inter-generational progress in IQ. Of course I believe it can be done. It has been frustrated by a significant rise in births to children who get raised in single parent homes in far less than non-supportive circumstances - in other words, cultures that don’t put children and education first. This to some is a moral issue - but not to me - it is an economic issue. Having kids in circumstances where they cannot properly be cared for a poor life and like skills choice, with the costs paid out and borne for quite some time to come. It is the largest single factor in our increasingly knowledge based global economic to rising income disparity. And to remind, this has nothing to do with IQ but rather with a culture that countenances poor decisions.</p>
<p>"Your kids probably are well adjusted. Less money needed for psychiatric care someday. "</p>
<p>I’m gonna jump in here, although I may regret (and delete) it. I do think Americans value happiness and self-directio more than other cultures. I am 1/2 second gen west indian. That’s mom’s side, only one, maybe there was two, of 13 to go to college. My dad was half Black, half native American. Born in Alabama in 1918. Retrospectively, I think he must have been amazing, blessed with both intellect and drive. Only one in his family (of 8 ) to go to college, grad school (Ivy) and to leave Alabama. My husband is first gen, 100 percent Jamaican. Tremendous " support" within the family to become a doctor. the only thing to take precedence over the needs of the family/group. (too bad he married a “yank”!) While we both expect our kids to succeed academically, I am way more likely then my husband to value their happiness, and to think “after all, you could be dead tomorrow”. I often wonder how long it takes even the families of immigrants to give up, and accept that working hard may not be all it’s cracked up to be. There is no way our kids will do as well academically as their parents, but I can hope they will be happier!</p>
<p>I know this is an anecdotal evidence only. For some reason, most of my coworkers who have a Ph. D and are new immigrants do not strongly recommend their children to get the same or similar degree. One of them told me that it is really not worth it to spend so much time and efforts to get a Ph. D degree these days; as long as his child receives just enough education (and “right” kind of education) to get a job, he will be happy. He prefers his child to get an engineering undergraduate degree from a state university (and not actually go into an engineering career) and continue to get a JD degree from any law school. He also said that, in the engineering area in particular, the more prestigious a graduate school is, the more foreign students will likely be there. (I do not know whether this is true.)</p>
<p>I wonder if the economic status of the immigrant families have any bearing. If the parents were docs, Phds and comfortable vs parents who work at low status, back breaking jobs, often 7 days a week to get by.</p>
<p>For the children of immigrants from a less affluent economic background, they usually don’t have the security of family support. Some children are even expected to support the family to make ends meet or help out with the younger siblings’ education. Would these children put more value on hard work and economic security ?</p>