Why do Asians/Jews/West Indians do better?

[hmom5]

<p>

Perhaps the larger lesson is a very empowering one: success depends less on intellectual endowment than on perseverance and drive. As Professor Nisbett puts it, “Intelligence and academic achievement are very much under people’s control.”

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/opinion/07kristof.html?em[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/07/opinion/07kristof.html?em&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[CaliforniaDancer]

<p>Hey, I just read Nisbett’s book a few weeks ago for my AP US History class - we had to choose a book that somehow (very loosely) related to US history, and I chose that book. When I saw the title of the thread, I clicked on it so i could recommend the book.</p>

<p>I thought it was really good overall, despite a few minor flaws that I won’t go into here (I went into them in the 7 page paper I wrote for my class ), but I would highly recommend it. </p>

<p>Two earlier articles about the same book (apparently, the NYT likes it a lot?)
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/books/review/Holt-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/29/books/review/Holt-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/opinion/16kristof.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/opinion/16kristof.html?_r=2&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[yawn]

<p>I’ve always thought it was fairly obvious that success has more to do with cultural and familial expectations, which facilitate personal perseverance and drive, than the “genetic fact of existence” by being some particular race or ethnicity.</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>I’m not sure how anything in that article can be related to:

Intelligence…[is] very much under people’s control.

</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Uh, the part that suggests that it’s related to personal perseverance and drive. </p>

<p>Glad to help.</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>

Uh, the part that suggests that it’s related to personal perseverance and drive.

Uh, quote it please.</p>

[soozievt]

<p>

I’m not sure how anything in that article can be related to:
Quote:
Intelligence…[is] very much under people’s control.

</p>

<p>**BTW, the quote in the article was that “Intelligence and academic achievement are very much under people’s control.”</p>

<p>

Uh, quote it, please.

</p>

<p>Here…(the whole article, however, really is about this point!!)…</p>

<p>

These three groups may help debunk the myth of success as a simple product of intrinsic intellect, for they represent three different races and histories. In the debate over nature and nurture, they suggest the importance of improved nurture — which, from a public policy perspective, means a focus on education.

</p>

<p>

Dr. Nisbett, a professor of psychology at the University of Michigan, argues that what we think of as intelligence is quite malleable and owes little or nothing to genetics.

</p>

<p>

In any case, he says, the evidence is overwhelming that what is distinctive about these three groups is not innate advantage but rather a tendency to get the most out of the firepower they have.

</p>

<p>About a study:

But beginning in grade school, the Chinese outperformed their peers, apparently because they worked harder.

</p>

<p>

A common thread among these three groups may be an emphasis on diligence or education, perhaps linked in part to an immigrant drive.

</p>

<p>

Among West Indians, the crucial factors for success seem twofold: the classic diligence and hard work associated with immigrants, and intact families.

</p>

<p>

Perhaps the larger lesson is a very empowering one: success depends less on intellectual endowment than on perseverance and drive.

</p>

[LakeWashington]

<p>My, my. What would Charles Murray have to say about this article and its opinion? Heard him today on Bill Bennett’s show (serendipity, believe me. Hah).</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>

**BTW, the quote in the article was that “Intelligence and academic achievement are very much under people’s control.”

I know. I happen to agree that high academic achievement can happen without high intellect (within reason). However, I don’t think many intelligence scholars today make the argument that intelligence is something we can control. That’s just idiotic. Intelligence has been identified to be quite genetic (twins studies, etc).</p>

[OperaDad]

<p>I’d like to see a study of adopted kids. Study the kids adopted by parents of a different ethnic background, and see if the correlation is stronger between the parents and their ethnic group in predicting outcome, or between the kids and their ethnic group.</p>

[soozievt]

<p>Mr. Payne </p>

<p>I believe this professor is saying that intrinsic intellect is malleable. You might be born with a certain intellect, but it is how it is shaped and nurtured and used that makes a difference when it comes to success.</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>

I believe this professor is saying that intrinsic intellect is malleable. You might be born with a certain intellect, but it is how it is shaped and nurtured and used that makes a difference when it comes to success.

I don’t get that at all. He doesn’t talk about IQ changing over the course of a lifetime (given appropriate environmental support). For the most part he talks about effort making the most of a given IQ (his point in regards to Chinese outperforming similarly IQ’d Caucasians). No one contends that effort is a huge part of individual success. What is under contention is the statement “Intelligence is under people’s control.”</p>

[mathmom]

<p>

I’d like to see a study of adopted kids. Study the kids adopted by parents of a different ethnic background, and see if the correlation is stronger between the parents and their ethnic group in predicting outcome, or between the kids and their ethnic group.

[Intelligence</a> - Adoption Encyclopedia](<a href=“Adoption | Adopting.org”>Adoption | Adopting.org) Haven’t read the original studies, but it looks like social economic class of parents makes the biggest difference.</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>

I’d like to see a study of adopted kids. Study the kids adopted by parents of a different ethnic background, and see if the correlation is stronger between the parents and their ethnic group in predicting outcome, or between the kids and their ethnic group.

One doesn’t even need to do that. One can merely look at adoption studies within a single ethnic group…</p>

<p>IQ has predictive relevance that can not be explained away by parental socioeconomic status.</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>

Intelligence - Adoption Encyclopedia Haven’t read the original studies, but it looks like social economic class of parents makes the biggest difference.

I will respond to this later tonight.</p>

[oldfort]

<p>On a lighter note, I heard this is what letter grades mean to Chinese (Asians) parents.</p>

<p>A - Average
B - Bad
C - Catastrophe
D - Death
F - Forget about it</p>

[katliamom]

<p>It’s very interesting to me that several children I know in this country identified as “highly gifted” were considered merely “very capable” in Europe, where they started school.</p>

<p>Big difference in how these children are perceived. One assumes a kind of rare innate quality, the other assumes a capacity for WORK. </p>

<p>Jews, Asians and West Indians do well because they expect their children to WORK hard, just as their parents work hard. A label bestowed on children by some abstract test has nothing to do with that expectation.</p>

[munchkin]

<p>This thread make me cry. We are of Asian descent and I often wondered why my kids don’t do as well as the kids I read about. For years I wondered where had I failed my kids. :(</p>

[oldfort]

<p>Your kids probably are well adjusted. Less money needed for psychiatric care someday.</p>

[OperaDad]

<p>

Jews, Asians and West Indians do well because they expect their children to WORK hard

</p>

<p>Point of clarification: They are expected to DO WELL. If they do well, how much WORK it takes is secondary. If they do not do well, then they are expected to at least work hard to do their best.</p>

<p>Note: There might be some minor grumbling from the Mom about why Son isn’t studying. But, if the retort is: “I’m getting all A’s”, then they will be told to practice the violin some more.</p>