<p>At Duke, many of the frat guys have a lot of ambition- few are actually intellectual in nature though.
They care a lot about themselves, thus they care a lot about their futures.</p>
<p>My memory of the frat members at Brown is they were loud, drunken louts who supported the notion that it was all right to rape a woman if she was unconscious, under the apparent notion that unconsciousness constituted consent. I know that at many campuses today, fraternities are the center of the binge drinking culture. That’s the basis of my low opinion of fraternities. I don’t know much about sororities.</p>
<p>The OP certainly defends her position well as a sorority member. What is there to defend? Why defend her position when no accusations are made? </p>
<p>The OP has made a broad and accusatory statement the we here “always seem to refer to sorority women as rich, drunk, slutty, partiers who have no diversity, no quirkiness, no academic ambition, and no genuine kindness.” and I am offended by her claim. I will not let that pass, and turn this thread into a pat on the back for Greeks. Talk about fishing for a compliment!</p>
<p>I want the OP to back up her statement referring to how we always disparage Greeks here- or apologize.</p>
<p>Um, younghoss, Greeks are disparaged all over this thread. Just read it. I do hope that some Brown frat members will weigh in on the issue of it being OK to rape an unconscious drunk girl… (See post #22.) Good grief!!!</p>
<p>Of course being the “best and the brightest” (post #15) accounts for nothing, as it should.
Are you really suggesting that grades should have anything to do with who is invited to
join a social organization?</p>
<p>I agree that I have not seen overt statements against greek organizations, but there are
often questions or comments about being “too greek”, with an apologetic reply assuring
that it isn’t too bad, or you don’t have to join, so I understand the original question.</p>
<p>I never thought I would join a fraternity, but ended up joining as a sophmore (30 years
ago) and it was the best decision I could have made. My grades went up, I got involved
in many campus activities, and made life-long friends. At my university, the average GPA
of greeks was higher than that of non-greeks. Blanket statements against fraternities
and sororities are as uninformed as blanket statements in favor of them.</p>
<p>I read post 22. I cannot intelligently comment whether or not the (rape)event actually occurred that Fang alludes to. I also cannot confirm or deny the accuracy of Fang’s memories at Brown. Were the frats Fang remembers “loud drunken lots” or is his memory faulty, and he really doesn’t remember loud frat members? Either way, I don’t see Fang’s comments in response to the OP as the issue, or as an example to document the Op’s claim.</p>
<p>It’s not at issue whether I think Greeks on campus are wonderful, insignificant, awful, or anywhere in between. Giving examples-good or bad- now of what I may have experienced is also of no consequence. Imo, what is at issue is that the Op has told us here that people here on this forum always write disparagingly about sororities. It is my belief that people here do not always disparage sorority sisters. I am offended by her statement.</p>
<p>I see a clear distinction between asking: <em>sororities: good or bad?</em> and asking: <em>why does everyone here disparage sororities?</em>. The Op has asked about the latter, not the former. My answer to the OP would be that I deny unfairly disparaging any sorority member here; if she can find evidence otherwise bring it forward.</p>
<p>There are equally kind, nice, good people who have nothing to do with the social clubs you associate with. Many of us do not see the need to formally isolate oneself from the rest of the campus socially by spending one’s time with a select group of students. Being a memeber of a social club does not preclude being smart or other positive qualities; but it does preclude having time to spend with those you meet in classes et al who are not in the clubs. Most students do not have a need for a formally dictated social life or to live with a formal group of like minded individuals. Having a permanent group of friends can be reassuring, but having the freedom to choose your associates and activities without the obligations of a sorority appeals to many. The negative feelings you perceive probably relate to the exclusiveness of your club- one has to be a member to live and socialize there. No room for outsiders. Setting yourselves apart from the the “riffraff”. Being “in” or “out”, us and them…</p>
<p>I agree with this. You have to be invited to be their “sisters.” Some are included and many are excluded. I admit to a mild, generalized prejudice. Most of my friends were in sororities, so I don’t hold it against them in real life, but I do have a negative view of the whole Greek scene.</p>
<p>I’ve heard so many parents say that their daughters are pledging right away because they don’t know anyone at the school and they need to make friends. hello…that is the only way they can think of to make friends?</p>
<p>Plus, it’s unappealing to me as a person because of the idea of all those girls. My core group of friends in college was 2 girls and 4 guys. As it turned out, 2 girls, 2 gay guys and 2 straight guys. Even now I work in a field that is still majority male.</p>
<p>I will say that I haven’t gotten the impression that anyone on CC thinks of sorority girls as slutty or hard drinkers.</p>
<p>Here’s an example of an old CC post post from an W&Lee Discussion:
“It is the IDEA of frats & sororities that I hate. The pathetic need to be labeled worthy by a group of equally insecure girls & boys. Some events are open? Well, the membership isn’t, correct? It reminds me of the “colored days” at beaches in days past.”</p>
<p>There are plenty of CCers who spout VERY negative views - and there have been plenty threads with an anti-greek (and yes an anti-athletics) bent. We’re not making this up…I’ve been around here a while. The OP put out a specific very nasty quote that I haven’t seen - but I’ve seen enough to know that the Greek haters are out there! In fairness to CC, there are also a number of parents who are balanced (not haters, not lovers).</p>
<p>Greeks were such a small percentage of the population at my University that most students hardly knew they existed other than a party announcement every now and then. You had to seek them out and a few did but most ignored the greek system and had little interest in it. </p>
<p>This was a mid-sized Western university where most of the kids were from small towns. Exclusive clubs did not exist in the home town either.</p>
<p>^^^
I’m just not getting the extreme concern about selectivity.
I wanted to be on the tennis team in high school. Didn’t make it.
I wanted to go to Cornell. They wouldn’t let me in. And they didn’t even tell me why. I had good grades too!
I’ve been rejected after interviews with Companies - plenty of times.
My 4 friends in 6th grade booted me out of their group (shunning doesn’t feel good) - thankfully, I was able to find new friends.
So how are the greeks different? Yes, it’s more formal - but forming selective groups and getting rejected is part of life. And it happens informally ALL the time.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, don’t get me started about the “helmet headed” athlete haters!!!</p>
<p>I’ve been around a long time too. Just use the search engine and you can find many ugly posts about athletes and greeks. </p>
<p>There are some pretty closed minded people who post on CC, biases abound, and some of the posts are so completely over the top as to be laughable!! But, that’s what makes the day go by quicker - gets my blood up!</p>
<p>Maybe I’ll start a thread about how “nerdy band kids” are exclusive and don’t give the time of day to football players. That should get some responses ;)</p>
<p>“Of course being the “best and the brightest” (post #15) accounts for nothing, as it should.
Are you really suggesting that grades should have anything to do with who is invited to
join a social organization?”</p>
<p>I can’t tell whether or not you are being sarcastic here. At my daughter’s school, the university has a minimum GPA requirement in order to go through fraternity/sorority recruitment. Apparently, most of the sororities (don’t know anything about the fraternities) have their own GPA requirements which are FAR higher than the university mandated one. My impression was that GPA had a whole lot to do with being offered membership as they don’t want girls with shaky academics getting involved in a time consuming activity which could cause them to flunk out. Secondly, the sororoties on her campus seem to have kind of a friendly competition to be the house with the highest GPA. Being smart is seen as an asset when the young ladies come through the house.</p>
<p>At my alma mater, GPA was most definitely an important factor for membership consideration. I did not go Greek, but many of my friends did, and all of the ones I knew at my dorm and in my classes were pretty darn sharp academcially. As far as being exclusionary goes, most of my Greek friends were of course close to their sisters, but had many friends from other houses, as well as non-Greek friends like myself.</p>
<p>It never occurred to me that there might be students who have an interest in Greek life but refuse to rush because of a fear of rejection.</p>
<p>My son graduated from a university with a substantial Greek system, and my daughter is now a student at a university with an even bigger one. Neither of them rushed, but their decisions not to do so had nothing to do with selectivity. They simply didn’t like the idea of belonging to a fraternity or sorority.</p>
<p>Choosing not to go Greek does not necessarily mean that the student doesn’t have the courage to go through rush.</p>
<p>I think toneranger’s #32 post makes a point. I can personally relate, for myself or kids, w/ everyone of the examples she mentioned. Rejection hurts. I would suppose that is why some students decide not to rush. (NOT the only reason, so don’t attack)</p>
<p>I and my 3 kids attended (attend) schools w/ a large greek scene. I did not join a sorority, my son did join a frat, D1 did not join a sorority and D2 is a first-year, so next year will tell. My H was not a frat member and I aways sense disdain when referring to our son’s frat.</p>
<p>I will refer to my kids experience since it is recent and more relevant. S loves his frat and it has been a great experience for him. All the guys we have met are nice respectful young men. They do community service and yes they do have parties. But the parties are controlled and there are designated sober kids. Things could still happen.</p>
<p>D1 is independent. She also has nice, respectful friends (some are sorority members). They too have parties, but I don’t think there are designated sober people. There is no group community service (although she does on her own–just had to get that in!)</p>
<p>Do not tell me, as some have suggested, that only greeks have the wild, drunken parties where date rapes occur. </p>
<p>Do I sense a bit of anti-greek on CC–yes. I get the sense it is not viewed as intellectual. So my question is, is there less drunkeness and date rape, or Animal House behavior at schools w/ no greek? Opinions do not matter. Facts, w/ support do. I’m curious.</p>
<p>“Opinions do not matter. Facts, w/ support do.”</p>
<p>I think we have a little “thread drift” here. The OP asked why some CCers aren’t supportive of the Greek system. That’s a perception issue, not a “just the facts Ma’am” issue. Consider, why do people think Hendrix was a better (or worse) guitarist than Jimmy Ray Vaughn?</p>
<p>I don’t think Greeks are hated. I mean, where are all those “Close the Greeks” organizations one would expect if those organizations were universally detested? But it’s certainly fair to suggest that some people have reservations. Those reservations may not apply to a specific house.</p>
<p>In my view, groups formed on the basis of exclusivity should be held to a higher standard than the general population. Unfortunately, some Greek organizations fail to do that. OP, your Greek experience has been very positive, and I’m happy for you.</p>
<p>“The negative feelings you perceive probably relate to the exclusiveness of your club- one has to be a member to live and socialize there. No room for outsiders. Setting yourselves apart from the the “riffraff”. Being “in” or “out”, us and them…”</p>
<p>Even assuming this is true, if a bunch of people you perceive as snobs go form a little club and don’t let you in, if you don’t like them, why do you want to socialize with them anyway? What’s the difference if they call themselves Kappa Phi Whatever, versus if they are just the snobby kids down the hall who eat together, go out together and don’t particularly hang out with you?</p>
<p>“Of course being the “best and the brightest” (post #15) accounts for nothing, as it should.
Are you really suggesting that grades should have anything to do with who is invited to
join a social organization?”</p>
<p>“I can’t tell whether or not you are being sarcastic here.”</p>
<p>No, I wasn’t being sarcasatic. Post #15 implied that membership should be based on academic merit,
as though good grades are the only relevant thing and top students should be granted access to
everything. My point was that these are primarily social organizations and members are selected based
on how well they would fit in with the fraternity or sorority.</p>
<p>So I guess you have no facts NewHope33?</p>
<p>I hate the idea of having to have a group of people you don’t know “accept” you in order to socialize with them-I hate the idea of being judged by someone in the first place, especially when they’re not paying me, accepting me into an academic institution or something else*. It reminds me of some kind of high school clique, which I have a VERY strong distaste for. You either like me or you don’t, take it or leave it. If you don’t, that’s too bad. Having a group of people who don’t know me or pay me judge me is something I find insulting-I don’t need THEIR approval to be successful in life. For every successful person who WAS in a frat or sorority, there are many others who weren’t. Steve Jobs, for instance, didn’t even finish university.</p>
<p>*I truly believe that you can only judge people if you pay them.</p>