<p>Oh shoot. I was hoping eating clubs would be cool, not places for people to get wasted together.</p>
<p>Haha what? Princeton is the social “high” Ivy? What does that even mean?</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure everyone thinks their Ivy is the social Ivy.</p>
<p>I really think the Eating Clubs incubate an atmosphere I prefer less than the atmosphere at a lot of schools, and the responses I’ve heard in reply to that are mostly illegitimate. I’ve heard students at Princeton compare their Eating Clubs to Yale’s Secret Societies and to Harvard’s Final Clubs–neither of which are even close to comparable.</p>
<p>The bottom line is that its almost as if people are afraid to admit that there are some terrible downsides to the positives associated with Eating Clubs. First, everyone seems to be eager to say “People in sign-in clubs love their clubs!” but obviously, many people are excluded from Bicker clubs. When I was on Princeton for Admitted Student days, everyone was really happy to tell me how great Eating Clubs are.</p>
<p>But I talked to a couple people, on who got into a bicker club, one who did not (same club). The person who didn’t get in didn’t seem weird or antisocial, I actually thought she was pretty likable. But when we started talking about Bicker, things got clearly uncomfortable.</p>
<p>Look, I got into Ivy League schools. I already went through the process of being selected as preferable to other people, and feeling terrible for my friends who didn’t get into the places they wanted. As great as it was to be accepted, it sucks when the people around you get excluded from places. If Princeton was a one-of-a-kind institution with academics, resources, and facilities found nowhere else, it would be worth it.</p>
<p>But let’s be real here. As much as Princeton students want to talk about the great opportunities at Princeton (of which there obviously are many), the only thing that really differentiates HYPSM is the school atmospheres. Some people might love the Princeton atmosphere. But I prefer the other experiences.</p>
<p>Here is an idea:</p>
<p>They should now form a committee to address the issues of selectivity within Princeton for students that **fail **to get accepted into the</p>
<p>Football team
Basketball team
Baseball team
Tennis team
Crew team
Swimming team
Choir
Tigertones
Tigerlillies
Nassoons
Woodrow Wilson School
Exchange Program with Bocconi University
Exchange Program with ETH Zurich </p>
<p>after all, we do know that a certain percent of the Princeton students that apply to these teams and clubs and Programs do not get the opportunity to participate…so lets gets those committees going here…</p>
<p>you see, having selectivity at the Eating Clubs is really really bad and we never observe it at any other events, clubs, majors, Programs or teams at Princeton, right?</p>
<p>for instance, every Princeton student can apply to this program and participate, right?
[OIP:</a> Archive](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/oip/announcements/archive/?id=2581]OIP:”>http://www.princeton.edu/oip/announcements/archive/?id=2581)</p>
<p>how about this program?
[OIP:</a> Archive](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/oip/announcements/archive/?id=2552]OIP:”>http://www.princeton.edu/oip/announcements/archive/?id=2552)</p>
<p>after all, once the Princeton student graduates, he will never be faced with situations where he will not be accepted to something that he really wants to participate in, right?</p>
<p>So lets prepare these wonderful Princeton students for the real world and eliminate any selectivity in any Eating Club, sports team, exchange program, Woody Woo Program, choir and other singing groups…better yet, lets guarantee a spot in any Princeton graduate school program to any Princeton Undergraduate because, of course, we don’t want to disappoint the student if he doesn’t get accepted…</p>
<p>but, hey, this is what real life is like, isn’t it?</p>
<p>MSauce</p>
<p>As a high school senior, you have had a very limited exposure to Princeton (apparently you visited on admitted students days and you might know one or two kids who go to the school), yet you apparently feel perfectly entitled to post on Princeton’s numerous (according to you) failings. In the last two weeks or so, you have posted negatively about (i) the honor code (and the fact that you only got a one page summary of it in your admitted students packet), (ii) the fact that Princeton gives more weight to stats than the other HYPS schools (something, by the way, you are completely wrong about), (iii) that Princeton will take more kids off the waitlist than the other HYPS schools, (iv) that Woody Woo is a horribly competitive program which only takes in 50% of applicants, whereas the Yale EPE program, which also takes in 50% of its applicants, is not a horribly competitive program, (v) that politics is a second class major at Princeton, (vi)that the eating clubs are hideously snobbish and exclusive and no one really wants to be in a sign-in club, (vii) that you were unable to really see the eating clubs, because the administration wouldn’t let you in to said terrible clubs during admitted students days, (viii) that Princeton’s campus is too beautiful and safe as compared to Yale, where you will have the opportunity to make a difference in the community and (ix) the fact that Princeton’s lack of a medical school should scare off potential pre-meds.</p>
<p>I’m thinking that you’re going to have some trouble at Yale next year, considering, as you put it, that “it is against the Yale policy to compare themselves to any schools”. I’m hoping, however, that at Yale (which is a wonderful school), you will learn some humility.</p>
<p>^^JohnAdams</p>
<p>C’mon do you really believe that being cut from the football team is the same as being “hosed” at TI?</p>
<p>The first situation is judgement on your ability to play football, the second is a judgement on you. It’s very personal.</p>
<p>So you are saying that the cruelty of the bicker process at selective clubs is good because it prepares you for the real world? Huh? With that line of reasoning you can justify all sorts of nasty behaviors. I don’t think this attitude lines up with the University’s educational philosophy.</p>
<p>The report outlines a way that clubs can still maintain their selectivity but with a little more confidentiality so that it becomes less painful for those rejected. I am curious about what current or former selective club members think of the suggestion in the report.</p>
<p>midat, do we even know whether MSauce was ever accepted at Princeton?</p>
<p>by what you posted, he seems to be a step-son of German Car.</p>
<p>soomoo, so tell us, how much of the success in the incredible competition to be accepted into Tigertones, Nassoons and Tigerlillies do you think depends on singing ability versus character, personality and friendships?</p>
<p>keep in mind that there are probably only a couple of spots open per year and dozens of exctremely qualified singers attempting to get accepted…</p>
<p>soomo, how little you know of football</p>
<p>many times a football player will be cut, even though he has a similar ability, because of his character, personality and attitude.</p>
<p>and who is more devasted by the cut, the football player, who has played for somewhere around 10 years and has no other football team to play with, or the bickeree that can join one of another 10 Eating clubs?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The singing groups at Princeton are often feeders to particular bicker clubs as are the athletic teams.While in theory the clubs expand one’s social circle beyond his/her residential college there are certain interests heavily represented in different clubs.If you ask current students they will be able to tell you where the artsy kids go bicker and sign in,where the science types go,swimmers,politics kids go,etc.</p>
<p>With eating clubs"belonged to" by over 75% of upperclassmen those students choosing not to do so have pretty compelling reasons. Cost is not a minor one though I realize financial aid covers the basic membership(social costs are not insignificant). Drinking is another reason.The fact that the eating clubs provide a ready made social structure for students makes it an easy way to belong. For those students who don’t choose to affiliate or even visit the clubs finding a niche freshman year is important. </p>
<p>Alumother commented awhile back that Princeton students are a social set.I agree but I do think that a student who chooses to remain in the residential college and define her social life outside the clubs can do so happily. It takes initiative to do so.But hey the student I know who has done it well for three years had a great time at lawn parties over the weekend , too.</p>
<p>I think this is another one of the persistent Princeton ■■■■■■. Gets SO tiring. Do any of us go over to Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, and thrash around? No. That in and of itself ought to say something. The eating clubs aren’t perfect. But they have a significant set of strengths that should be put out there. I hated them when I was there. My kids love the system. At this point I am just reporting their experience. And, and, even though I hated the eating clubs I loved Princeton. I’m a lifelong Democrat, intellectual, arty type, who got trapped in corporate life and I STILL LOVED THE PLACE. </p>
<p>Yale alumni love their school too. Enough already.</p>
<p>I can’t get my posts to quote. The technology is too complex, haha.</p>
<p>“*As a high school senior, you have had a very limited exposure to Princeton (apparently you visited on admitted students days and you might know one or two kids who go to the school), yet you apparently feel perfectly entitled to post on Princeton’s numerous (according to you) failings. In the last two weeks or so, you have posted negatively about (i) the honor code (and the fact that you only got a one page summary of it in your admitted students packet), (ii) the fact that Princeton gives more weight to stats than the other HYPS schools (something, by the way, you are completely wrong about), (iii) that Princeton will take more kids off the waitlist than the other HYPS schools, (iv) that Woody Woo is a horribly competitive program which only takes in 50% of applicants, whereas the Yale EPE program, which also takes in 50% of its applicants, is not a horribly competitive program, (v) that politics is a second class major at Princeton, (vi)that the eating clubs are hideously snobbish and exclusive and no one really wants to be in a sign-in club, (vii) that you were unable to really see the eating clubs, because the administration wouldn’t let you in to said terrible clubs during admitted students days, (viii) that Princeton’s campus is too beautiful and safe as compared to Yale, where you will have the opportunity to make a difference in the community and (ix) the fact that Princeton’s lack of a medical school should scare off potential pre-meds.”
*</p>
<p>I would like to point out that I’ve also called Princeton the most beautiful school in the country, I’ve been very complementary of their prestige, thought some of their athletic offerings (sprint football) were cool, and I’ve lauded the Woodrow Wilson school for its greatness in Public Policy. I predicted Princeton would do poorly compared to the other schools because of conversations I had at the Princeton Preview. And it was a guess, nothing more than a prediction.</p>
<p>As for the test-scores comment, for some reason Princeton people took that negatively. It wasn’t negative. I said Princeton gives more weight to the scores than other schools in my opinion, and based on the stats on their website. I don’t get why there’s offense taken to it. It was in a larger conversation where I perceived different schools looked for differently assembled applications.</p>
<p>The bottom line is most of what you just typed is either A) Not really an insult, B) True, or C) Misrepresented. Is it not true that the lack of medical facilities should be viewed as a negative by Pre-Med students? Is it not true that the honor code and the situations posted on that thread are sort of scary?</p>
<p>I think there are two types of weak responses to concerns about the Eating Clubs. The first is “You don’t know what its like! Its awesome!” When clearly, many students on campus who do know what its like do have concerns about it. The second is “They’re just like group X, Y, and Z.” JohnAdams, I know you’re legitimately trying to help. But I think there are some major differences between the Football team and the Eating Clubs.</p>
<p>The Eating Clubs are the main social focus on campus. I’ve met people who say they have a great social life without the Eating Clubs, but I’ve yet to meet anyone who denies they dominate Social Life. Being on the football team isn’t the main social focus of 70-80% of the students on the Princeton campus. Being in eating clubs is.</p>
<p>The basic idea of an Eating Club is cool, I’ve said this before. Especially if you can get 20 friends to take over a sign-in club with you, it seems like a pretty cool type of deal. But along with the cool parts comes the bad. And when the focus of social life is a club that bickers and turns away students that it doesn’t like, I think that sort of atmosphere makes people care more about how they look and act. When you know you’ll be judged by your peers two years into your College experience, its simply a different atmosphere, in my opinion.</p>
<p>But as I say often, that’s one man’s opinion, and others may decide the cool parts outweigh the downsides.</p>
<p>Msauce, now why would you make such a false statement as this?</p>
<p>if 100% of the eligible students were members of Eating clubs, then only 50% of undergraduates would be members, since only Juniors and Seniors can join Eating clubs…</p>
<p>so your 70%-80% figure now drops to 35%-40% of the undergraduates.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>how about the Athletic teams and singing groups that only give you a chance to show your stuff for a week or two before you get cut?</p>
<p>How about the foreign exchange program that hinges on how you do during that one time hour interview?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>MSauce - If you had chosen to come to Princeton, but still harbored such negative sentiments about the eating clubs, I would want to sit down with you and do my best to convince you that they really are better (or at least, not worse) than other social systems. </p>
<p>But as it is, I’m only interested in saying a few cursory things:</p>
<p>Seventy percent of the upperclassmen are in clubs, meaning only 35% of the school is in clubs. This isn’t tremendously different from schools with large Greek systems. What makes the club system any worse than a Greek system? Frats/sororities often compel you to rush immediately before you’ve had much time to find your niche and make an informed decision. I could also parody you and say, “And when the focus of social life is a frat that rushes and turns away students that it doesn’t like, I think that sort of atmosphere makes people care more about how they look and act.” And remember, with Greek systems, there is no “nonselective” option. You don’t just “sign-in” to a frat. At Princeton, you can be a part of the social scene and still avoid the selection process. No one’s forcing you to bicker in order to join a club, but you must rush to join a frat. </p>
<p>I understand that people say a club being selective is not the same as some other types of institutions being selective, because they are selecting for “intangibles” rather than for talent. But isn’t this what Princeton does? Out of the 25,000 who apply, let’s assume just 6,000 are academically qualified, and 1,800 will be admitted. Once the adcom has reduced it to 6,000, the consideration of pure talent is pushed to the side and instead replaced with all sorts of concerns about a “diverse” class. </p>
<p>Reflecting on my experience here though, I’m actually kind of glad that students who are turned off by the clubs tend to not enroll here. It really makes me sad to meet students here who are genuinely made unhappy as a result of the club system, and I’m pleased to see that most of the students who choose to come here are at least okay with it. Disinterested is one thing, but disenchanted with is another.</p>
<p>Soomoo - The plan they laid out is extremely vague, and I’d need to know more before making a final judgment. I am, however, skeptical about some of the things they said.</p>
<p>“Students could submit their preferences either individually or as members of a group up to some agreed-upon size.” </p>
<p>While this sounds fine for sign-ins, people bickering this way would need to do so with the understanding that if the other members of their group don’t make the cut, then they probably won’t be offered a bid in said bicker club either. </p>
<p>“Such a process would not in any way preclude clubs… from efforts by the selective clubs to identify students they would most like to add to their ranks.”</p>
<p>It seems to me that, the bicker process would under this system would either be 1) long and arduous, or 2) superficial and cursory. As it is now, bicker club members spend three days bickering just the kids who saw that bicker club as their first choice, and then three nights discussing the merits of the bickerees. If we allowed multi-club Bicker, the number of bickerees each club saw would surely at least double, as bickerees would see bickering multiple clubs as a low-cost, high-reward sort of decision. Therefore, the bicker/discussion process as it is conducted now would take twice as long if your club remained committed to getting to know and fairly discussing each bickeree to the same extent. If you tried to meet/discuss the increased number of bickerees in the same amount of time, multi-club bicker would result in much fewer members meeting each bickeree and much less time being devoted to each bickeree’s discussion, meaning that the club’s decision/ranking would be based on less information/consideration. The following quote seems to imply that a cursory process would occur under this new system rather than an arduous process: </p>
<p>“This approach allows clubs to cultivate the interest of sophomores and spend time getting to know them, but without requiring them to engage in a highly pressured process, thereby creating a system that potentially reduces the potential for mistreatment, stress and sleep deprivation of the current selection process.”</p>
<p>I am also skeptical about the following quote: </p>
<p>“By placing every student who participates in his or her highest possible choice as part of a single process, this method… could make it easier to accept assignment to a non-selective club for a student who would have preferred a selective club.” </p>
<p>If you participated in Bicker and ultimately wind up in a sign-in club, then everyone’s still going to know (or assume) that you got hosed from at least ONE place, because it would’ve been illogical for you to place a sign-in as your first choice - if a sign-in had been your first choice, then the odds are strongly in favor of you not bothering with Bicker.</p>
<p>A lot of people say “how are frats any different?”</p>
<p>I think they’re very similar. But its worth pointing out that of HYP (Princeton’s immediate competitors), H and Y don’t really have strong frat influences. And I guess its been my experience that even with some Ivies having Frats, the only place that they take a comparable role in social life is Dartmouth.</p>
<p>The comment about 70-80% of students wanting to be in Eating Clubs is absolutely true. Even though Freshmen and Sophomores can’t be in them, don’t you think its something they think about often? As a similar comparison, say 80% of kids in a high school want to go to college. You wouldn’t say the number is untrue because only Seniors can actually apply, would you?</p>
<p>MSauce</p>
<p>To answer your questions, no,I don’t find the information posted about the honor code “scary”. Probably 99% of students have little or no contact with the honor system (other than knowing a student who might have been subject to disciplinary action) and I can assure you that there are very few cases where a student has been unjustly disciplined (and yes, there have probably been some and yes, I personally might change the system a little, but I can guarantee you that there have been unjust disciplinary actions taken at other schools with other systems). </p>
<p>No, the lack of a medical school should not, as you put it, “scare” a person away from Princeton. Princeton’s medical acceptance rates are extremely high and there is no evidence that Princeton students do not get into top medical schools.</p>
<p>However, you are being disingenuous here. Most of your posts I’m referring to have been designed to convince students to attend Yale, rather than Princeton. You are pretending to be somewhat neutral, while bashing Princeton. You have limited or inaccurate facts (posting the Revealed Preference study as if the research had been done in 2006) and you come to “conclusions” that don’t really make sense, i.e. the whole Woody Woo vs. EPE discussion, the view that Princeton is more stats oriented because it posts more stats on its website.</p>
<p>What you are doing would be similar to a student who was admitted to Yale and had visited twice, but had always preferred Princeton, going on Yale threads and making lots of unnecessary and provocative comments about crime in New Haven vs. safety at Princeton, the fact that there are certain residential colleges that are perceived to be inferior at Yale, the fact that Yale requires more courses to graduate than Princeton which in your opinion makes it infinitely more stressful, the fact that the students at Yale seem to be dissatisfied because they are always protesting (financial aid policies recently) whereas at Princeton, issues are dealt with calmly through task forces etc., the fact that Yale appears to offer less financial aid than Princeton etc. I think that you would be incensed by such a person and by the obvious bias and lack of knowledge such a person showed.</p>
<p>If a person was accepted to Yale and Princeton and decided on Princeton, why would that person not post those things on the Yale board? I would disagree with points I disagreed with and agree with points I agreed with.</p>
<p>I’m not a student who was denied there or has any reason to hold things against the University. I just didn’t love it and I bring my perspective to other possible students. I’m not saying stuff just to say it, I’m saying it because it’s my perspective.</p>
<p>Its not like I have all these opinions because I chose Yale. I chose Yale because I have all these opinions. After the first week in April it was actually 50 50 for me. I tell people impressions that were made on me as an admitted student. With the exception of the honor code policies (which I didn’t really know about) everything I say negatively about Princeton came from my discussions with others or visits before making my decision. I’m noy being paid by anyone, I havent yet attended anywhere, and I wasn’t rejected by Princeton. These are just legitimate concerns I had in my decision process.</p>
<p>Sorry MSauce, I have to agree with midatlmom here. I too have noticed your posts on the Princeton board in the last few weeks and early on pegged you as a kid who had decided on Yale and was trying to make himself feel more convinced and happy about his choice by dissing his next favorite option and trying to project his opinions on others. I personally prefer to hear from actual Princeton students about the honest pros and cons of all aspects of the university, not from a high schooler who has had very superficial contact with the place.</p>
<p>“You wouldn’t say the number is untrue because only Seniors can actually apply, would you?”</p>
<p>Shaky comparison, seeing as how (generally speaking) no high school student, not even seniors, are <em>really</em> college students. Also, with regard to Harvard and Yale, just because they don’t have a tremendously large Greek scene or a large proportion of students in clubs/societies doesn’t mean everyone else at those schools parties in a racially and socioeconomically diverse utopia… I suspect that their parties either 1) are kind of small, intimate, heterogeneous environments, 2) do not exist to the same extent that they are found at Princeton, or 3) take place at bars/nightclubs, where drinks are expensive and difficult to obtain for those under the age of 21.</p>
<p>“If a person was accepted to Yale and Princeton and decided on Princeton, why would that person not post those things on the Yale board?”</p>
<p>Because it can be construed as extremely obnoxious? If you’ve decided against a certain school, that’s fine. Move on.</p>
<p>What I find perplexing about these discussions of Princeton’s eating clubs is my inability to distinguish any difference between them and similar discussions of campuses with a large Greek presence. It’s almost exactly the same, including the complaints and the defenses. So bottom line: if you don’t want a campus with a large Greek presence (and especially if you don’t like the selectivity of rush), you might not want Princeton, either. Isn’t it that simple?</p>