Why don't people like the idea of eating clubs, etc?

Colleges & Universities Princeton University
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<p>Hunt, you’re right. The only difference, and it’s small but significant, is that only the 3-4 club officers live in each eating club. So they aren’t quite the insulated social pods that fraternities can be. And it’s quite easy to go hang out at clubs where you are not a member. The member-only nights are not too frequent. You need a pass for most parties, if you’re not a member, but I have been surprised how easy they are to get these days.</p>

<p>Again, I hated the club system in 1977. I quit my selective Bicker club gladly. Thing truly appear to have changed, and I hope will continue to evolve.</p>

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<p>This does Princeton a disservice imho. In all the years I’ve been paying attention, Princeton’s Eating Clubs system–whatever its failings–has never descended to the typical depths of your average “campus with a large Greek presence” with its hazings, drunken brawling, violence, etc. Apples and oranges.</p>

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<p>And FWIW, I seriously doubt that anyone who spends an appreciable amount of time on the a Princeton forum bashing Princeton–whose undergraduate experience and academic quality are by all accounts second to none–was ever admitted to Princeton *or *Yale.</p>

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<p>I’ve seen what Alumother and Marsden just said in discussions about Greek life at some schools. Obviously, not all Greek systems are the same. But it’s really not apples and oranges at all (indeed, at some schools a lot of kids don’t live in the frat or sorority). It seems to me that if Princeton folks would just say, “Yeah, it’s kind of like a Greek system, except you don’t live there, and it’s not as intense as the Greek system at a lot of schools,” there’d be a lot less to talk about.</p>

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<p>The biggest difference I see with the vast majority of Greek systems is that half the clubs are open to anyone, hence, nobody who wants to be in a club need be excluded. Kids can choose to bicker, but if you object to that process, don’t like the “culture” of particular clubs, or just don’t want to put yourself through it, there are perfectly good alternatives. </p>

<p>I have never been a fan of Greek life, but when I was in college, it was nice to have the frat houses to party at freshman year. I don’t think I ever went there after that year as I had found other better alternatives for leisure time, but I certainly didn’t mind the Greeks being around. My impression is that it is similar for most independent Princetonians, it’s just one more alternative way of partying and you can join it or avoid it at pleasure.</p>

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<p>Sorry, I meant “I suspect that their parties either 1) are kind of small, intimate, HOMOgeneous environments…”</p>

<p>@Hunt: In real life, I DO tell people that. And then they stop asking accusatory questions. </p>

<p>@Alumother: The Cap Capital Campaign has felt your absence.</p>

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<p>I think the eating clubs can be far less intimidating than fraternities (especially the sign in ones). They are co-ed for one and students don’t live there. And they each have there own personality. Some are more liberal, some more conservative, some more artsie, some more “engineer oriented”. It would seem that everyone could find a place if they wanted to.</p>

<p>I really don’t know much about the greek systems at colleges, except to say that when my son was considering different schools, he refused to look at any with a large greek scene. Of course, the exception was MIT whose fraternities we were told can be quite different.</p>

<p>Everyone has a similar image come to mind when the term “Frat boy” is mentioned. Not so for eating club member.</p>

<p>So to me, they don’t seem like fraternities at all and to say they are, I think, does them a disservice. They have their issues (bicker) as I have said ad nauseum, but I will take them over frats any day.</p>

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<p>And eating clubs have girls in them.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure if you are referring to me as a ■■■■■ because I am not.My d is happily at Princeton.</p>

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<p>cornfed, no, I was NEVER referring to you as a ■■■■■:).</p>

<p>@ray, ha! That’s OK. With two full freight kids I’ve done my bit for the U. D joined TI (I nearly fell over in my chair), or I would have ante-ed up for Cap too:).</p>

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<p>TI is coed now? What is the university coming to? ;)</p>

<p>I’m a '79 alum and was in a sign-in club. Back in the dark ages, we thought the bicker clubs were on their way out, vestiges of the ‘old’ Princeton. In fact I think there were more sign-in than bicker clubs at the time. A group of friends and I joined en masse, never even thinking to bicker, since we all wanted to be together. I was probably very naive, but I had no clue about the social hierarchy of the clubs. We knew a bunch of kids in the class above us at one club, spent time hanging out there, enjoyed it, and so we joined. Our friends who didn’t join for various reasons (mostly financial) were at the club almost as much as we were; there were no passes and they came to all the parties. The club scene seems much more intense these days.</p>

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<p>Alumother, congratulations on the TI daughter - she will love it…</p>

<p>A former TI Officer</p>

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<p>John - Thanks - actually she graduated in 09 so she has already loved it. :slight_smile: Much to my great surprise. Booklady - I’d say the club scene is more involving, but that said, more fun and festive than when we were there.</p>

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<p>and the best part about the Princeton Eating Clubs?</p>

<p>they are a wonderful place to hang out and take the family and friends before and after football games once you have graduated.</p>

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<p>I have a take on the eating clubs that is fairly involved and will likely not interest most people.
People who have no problem with the HYPs of the world and their sub-ten percent admissions rates and who are uncomfortable with the selectivity of the eating clubs flummox me. You are worried about elitism? Get a grip.
By virtue of aspiring to the Ivy League you have bought into the advantages of the elite system.
Now I have a theory that the social experience at college is conflated in students’ and graduates’ minds with the institutions they attend. Both Princeton and Dartmouth, for example, have institutional social systems that are largely outside the control of their universities. They are also, year in and year out, among the universities with the highest alumni donation rates.
Harvard and Yale sought to mimic Oxford in assigning students to residential colleges, but at Oxford, the majority of students apply to their colleges and are accepted or rejected. They are not assigned. Harvard and Yale, by assigning students by administrative fiat, will never approach the alumni donation rates of Dartmouth and Princeton, IMO, where the students have more power over their college experiences. Powerlessness does not lead to identification with the institution.
Of course there are costs to more student power. People who are hosed from eating clubs at Princeton experience real pain. The Greek system at Dartmouth provides precious little safety net at 3 AM on a Sunday morning.
But in the end, IMO, freedom of association has and maybe will continue to serve Princeton well.</p>

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<p>The argument that says that the high loyalty among Princeton Alums is due to the selectivity of the eating clubs has been stated often. I am not sure I buy it. You are mixing up two arguments here, one has to do with selectivity, and one has to do with choice in living and eating. I can see how if you give students more choice on where to eat and live they may have a better experience. I am not sure selectivity is a necessary component of choice.</p>

<p>Also, I think that it is very easy to make a strong connection to the University while at Princeton no matter where you live and eat because Princeton is so focused on its Undergrads.</p>

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<p>As someone who was in an eating club and then dropped out senior year (sometimes I think I’m Alumother!), I really don’t agree that the eating clubs are what triggers the intense loyalty Princeton alumni feel for the school.</p>

<p>I think that Princeton has a couple of things that are, if not unique, somewhat unusual. First of all you do have a focus on undergraduate education, which I think is palpable to the students. If you want to do anything from an academic standpoint, the University will bend over backwards to make it happen. And these types of incredible academic opportunities are open to all students, not just the top students or those in an honors program.</p>

<p>Secondly the teachers are extraordinary and available. Not only do you have the opportunity to take classes with giants in the field, but they are constantly available to speak with you, have coffee with you and take an interest in you.</p>

<p>Also, there is the shared academic experience of junior papers and senior theses. While it’s tough, most students would say that the JP and thesis really are worthwhile. Also, just like people who have climbed a mountain together, this shared academic work tends to bring the students closer together and give them a common bond.</p>

<p>Then, you have a beautiful campus, where generally the life of the school is on campus (I contrast this to Columbia, which is an incredibly vibrant school, but kids do peel off socially). Because of its campus life, and the fact that the options on campus are superb, Princeton students support each other’s endeavors and spend most of their time on campus. If you need an urban “fix”, it’s available, but the campus activities and events are fairly high quality.</p>

<p>In addition, not that many Princetonians study abroad, which also leads to cohesiveness. It’s not that the University doesn’t promote study abroad, it’s that most of the kids really don’t want to spend a semester away from school. </p>

<p>Socially, the clubs provide an open and obvious place to party. Even if you’re socially awkward, you can find a party open to you on weekends. And, although I recognize that some people misunderstand and view them as intensely preppy, the kids I know get a hoot out of dressing up for Houseparties and Lawnparties, because it’s fun to have these sorts of traditions (just like occasionally I like dressing up and going out, but on a normal day, I don’t look particularly put together).</p>

<p>Finally, of course, the students are generally highly intelligent, interesting and relatively laid-back. This all leads to a place where the vast majority of students are very happy, both academically and socially, and really don’t want to leave when it’s time to graduate.</p>

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<p>In my case, I loved the school because a) it’s remarkably beautiful b) my academic experience was more mind-boggling than anything before or after c) I went to school with brilliant, fun, warm, creative people that I know to this day. I didn’t like being in a club while I was there, but looking back I can see that they play a big role in the social adeptness of many Princetonians - either by training them or attracting them to begin with. And I certainly didn’t mind the clubs’ existence. Life was just fine as an independent in a cooking co-op. </p>

<p>midatl - if you are me, then I must be you! What am I doing tonight?:)</p>

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<p>As another Princeton alumna mom, I have to echo Alumother and midatlmom’s sentiments about Princeton. There are so many great things about the Princeton undergrad experience, and belonging to an eating club was really a minor part of it all for me. I definitely did not bicker (never even crossed my mind to), and a group of friends and I signed in to a club which at the time had the reputation of being a “milk and cookies club”. That’s why the comparison of eating clubs to frats makes me laugh, because even though there was some drinking at our club’s weekend parties, there were plenty of us who didn’t drink much, or didn’t even drink at all, who still managed to dance and have a great time. I remember my eating club as a place where I had good meals with friends, and occasionally hung out to play a game of bridge or ping pong. It was just a comfortable place to have my meals!</p>

<p>It strikes me as so odd that the OP has spent so much time posting disparaging comments about the school he chose NOT to attend. When I chose to attend Princeton, I felt grateful to the admissions folks at the schools whose offers I declined, and while I might have sent a note to them to let them know the things I felt could be improved at their schools, I never would have dreamed of discouraging students who had different school preferences than I. To each his own…</p>

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<p>momx4</p>

<p>The OP IS attending Princeton next year. I don’t think she/he was disparaging Princeton so much as wondering why the eating clubs are so misunderstood.</p>