The colleges don’t “authorize” any other student groups to serve alcohol, right? They don’t “authorize” the tennis team or the newspaper club or College Republicans as being allowed to serve alcohol at their functions (which is not to say that those groups don’t go do so quietly, but not at official school-sponsored events). Frankly, for those of you who don’t like the Greek system, you’d just make sorority life MORE appealing if it were pitched at “if you want an authorized-alcohol party, go join a sorority.”
And just imagine the complaining if College X said – you can’t have alcohol at dorm parties, but you can in the fraternity and sorority houses. The claims of discrimination!!
Considering how alcoholic beverages are a critical part of many social gatherings/networking events in the social/professional worlds of post 21+ adults and on many campuses due to their respective histories/cultures, what you’re describing is just a symptom of a larger society-wide issue.
There are also certain towns/areas where this is a reflection of parental/adult neighbor behaviors exhibited in parties held in the homes/backyard areas.
For instance, the upper/upper-middle class NJ suburb many relatives grew up/attended school in and which I have some passing familiarity from visits is known for having an issue with well-off HS aged students holding alcohol-laden house parties…some of which really got out of hand when their parents aren’t home.
The woods behind a house belonging to an aunt & uncle was also known to them, neighbors, and township cops as a popular hangout for HS teens who insist on hanging out with alcoholic beverages as illustrated by frequent arrests and large numbers of wine cooler/beer containers left there.
Asking “why don’t the sororities host parties with alcohol on their premises” – how many of you parents would offer to host a party with free-flowing alcohol for college-age students and whoever the heck they want to invite, the majority of whom are under 21, in your home, in violation of your state’s laws, where you bear full liability? Oh, and while you’re not there to oversee anything? Anyone? So why would you expect any Panhel sorority to authorize / do the same? Do you think these organizations are stupid, or what?
Yeah, I get that the guys kind of skirt the law, whatever. That’s on them. I don’t get the rationale that because the guys skirt the law and act stupid (and in ways that make their liability insurers and risk management people shudder), that golly, the girls should too.
I reviewed the previous posts and don’t think anyone has made that statement. I myself made it a point to comment on the fact that it has been a positive experience for my own D so as to not turn the thread into a “skewer the frats” thread. So let’s not manufacture statements to rail against.
But we all know from previous discussions on this forum that at some schools there are problems, especially for the women. And as parents we have discussed at great length ways to make the environment safer for our girls. I found the article in the OP interesting because I am not sure that this issue was ever covered in our discussions. And personally I think the article raises some good points. Could the women, especially sorority women, many of whom have social capital, assist in changing the culture by having alternative events on some week-end nights?
No one has suggested sororities host “beer brawls” or liability inducing “blowouts.” That would be the whole point - to offer an alternative to that sort of thing. Sorority girls hosting parties could be undertaken specifically with an eye toward changing the heavy drinking culture that currently exists on todays campuses. Something along the lines of smaller parties or BBQ’s with wine/beer in limited quantities and limited number of attendees. They would not be any more officially sanctioned than the frat parties that routinely serve alcohol to underage students. And perhaps a venue might be made available if the women were working toward a goal that benefited the whole community. And I think these types of parties might very well be more welcome by both men and women than we might think. The frat parties are well attended, but for most underclassmen (especially freshmen) there really are few other alternatives at a lot of schools.
The “skirting the law” issue is really a ship that sailed long ago. No one is enforcing the law on college campuses today, hence the culture that currently exists. College students including those that are underage are going to drink. The challenge is how to curb the excessive drinking that seems to be fueled by some of the frat parties. The women have not yet been given the opportunity to “lead” in this area and perhaps that might make a difference.
isn’t that what mixers / exchanges during the week serve as? There may be some discreet alcohol, but they aren’t the beer brawls / blowouts / everybody-drink-til-you’re-blotto atmosphere that the Friday / Saturday night frat parties can devolve into.
I recognize no one on here has gone into “Greeks are bad.” I get that. I just don’t see how the Panhel system would ever get behind this. If I were an advisor to a national Panhel house, I’d say no way no how. Just because “my girls” might go drinking at fraternity parties or at bars doesn’t mean I want to open myself up to sanctioning them at my house or at my sponsored events.
And it still begs the question - ok, college A, now that you’ve said it’s a good thing for sororities to have parties with alcohol too, why can’t the dorms have them? Why should Greeks be “special” in being allowed to have alcohol at their events compared to non-Greeks?
And I will add that as a sorority alumnae, I don’t want to see the cost of joining be increased with the increased liability associated with allowing sororities to serve alcohol at parties. Even if someone attends one of those lovely barbecues or what ever and has just a beer or two, if there is an accident there will be a lawsuit.
That’s a great point. Basically, from a risk management standpoint, I don’t see why I’d ever want an association to explicitly “sponsor” something that’s against the law.
I don’t understand why we should assume that a girl who gets black out drunk at a fraternity party would not go overboard at a sorority party? I don’t think change of location would change the behavior. I guess in the spiked pinch scenario, you’d be less likely to be duped, but I don’t think that is the situation most of the time.
Sororities have done a good job of keeping liability costs down. Introducing alcohol into the equation seems to be a slippery slope to where the fraternities have gotten themselves. Wonder why IFC has not banned alcohol from the house parties? You would think their insurers would be clamoring for it.
I wonder, for similar size chapters who have similar size houses, what the insurance costs are for the frats vs the sororities.
Here’s one fraternity’s national risk management policy (I’m paraphrasing):
- Possession, sale, use or consumption of alcohol while on chapter premises or during a frat event, at a situation sponsored or endorsed by the chapter, or that one would associate with the frat, must be in compliance with laws of the state, city, and institute of higher education.
- No alcohol may be purchased with chapter funds. Purchase of a bulk quantity (e.g., kegs) prohibited.
- Open parties (unrestricted access by non-brothers) prohibited.
- No brothers shall purchase / serve / sell alcoholic beverages to a minor.
- Cannot co-sponsor an event with a tavern; however, can use a room in a tavern for a closed-invite event.
- All recruitment and rush activities must be non-alcoholic.
- No drinking games (goes on to define what that means).
- No alcohol at any activity / ritual.
Now, of course this doesn’t exactly play out like that. Here’s the question, though. Do nationals require each chapter to carry $xx in liability insurance? And does that liability insurance not pay out if a bad situation arises from a breach of their stated standards?
Maybe women’s orgs are just more risk-averse. Can’t say I blame them.
Most greek houses that aren’t owned by the university are owned by a local house corporation of that national organization. We know that IFC/Panhel have rules, the nationals may have another set of rules, and the local/house board (and owners) may have still another set (and of course universities have another layer of rules for houses they own or that are on their property).
How much per year IS this insurance? Let’s say you’ve got a home worth $1mm all said and done, 100 guys live there. How much liability insurance do you take on, to cover your liability (someone slips on your sidewalk, etc)? How does that change if you are serving alcohol in situations where not all are 21? Does anyone know the order of magnitude here? I imagine there are “specialist” insurance companies who do just this.
Not necessarily the behavior, but the results and risks of said behavior.
Disclaimer: I’m not taking a position either way on the issue—I really don’t know enough to. I do know that if someone gets blitzed, though, it does make a difference where the getting blitzed happens.
Here is an article on the self insurance pool for IFC. No numbers though. Last paragraph advocates banning alcohol from houses referring to numerous studies but not citing any.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/03/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/
Much longer Atlantic article describing the risk sharing. You were right @Pizzagirl. As soon as you violate those policies, the insurance group drops the fraternity member like a hot potato. Of course the plaintiff fights that.
Sorry, need to go make double sure my S understands ALL the dangers of bottle rockets. The first paragraph of this story was well… disturbing.
Many of those houses cost much more than $1M. The newer houses at Alabama, U Florida, FSU, etc., run in the $8-10M range.
Almost all of the sororities at D’s school are local. Nationals have been trying for years to convert the local houses (several of which are well established with 100+ members). One of the reasons the sororities have remained local is the ability to make their own decisions regarding parties and alcohol. Although they rarely have large parties at their houses (except outdoors), they often host smaller, controlled events at which alcohol is available/permitted (to those who are legal age of course). Their insurance costs only $40 per girl each semester.
I’m glad D’s sorority is subject to the same rules as the fraternities. Otherwise, I’m sure she’d be protesting. She has recently taken up the cause of inherent sexism in the Greek system with respect to the rushing/bid process. Specifically, why can men get several bids from different fraternities and select among them, while women have to go through the cut and matching process and only receive a single bid?
Although I was in a national sorority, we were very creative when it came to getting around Panhel rules (sshhh ;).
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Many of those houses cost much more than $1M. The newer houses at Alabama, U Florida, FSU, etc., run in the $8-10M range
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they are truly amazing.
We never complained that we couldn’t have alcohol parties at our Houses. I understand the concern that the fraternities end up with a leg up, so to speak, in deciding which sorority(ies) they want to associate with, or do “swaps” with, but it’s all part of the culture we live in. Women still largely have to wait until the men ask us out. Women still have to largely wait until the men propose. We may not like it, but it is what it is.
but that’s not true! They want US, so we have the power. The problem is that some girls don’t recognize that.
I asked a guy I knew and liked to my pledge formal. He’s now my H of 30 years :-). But seriously, the existence of these events sponsored by girls helped give us the agency and the excuse to ask out guys we were interested in. Hey, want to go with me to the pledge formal, barn dance, bowling party, etc.
But more importantly, while I’m NOT blaming the victim, I don’t get why girls are desperate to get into parties where the guys don’t want them - again, as I said up thread, your loss, dude. And frats with a “rapey” reputation - why don’t girls get better at “punishing” them by not showing up, versus lining up outside their doors hoping to be the chosen ones?
“Otherwise, I’m sure she’d be protesting. She has recently taken up the cause of inherent sexism in the Greek system with respect to the rushing/bid process. Specifically, why can men get several bids from different fraternities and select among them, while women have to go through the cut and matching process and only receive a single bid?”
Again, because they are run by different organizations. It’s like saying the inherent sexism in Scouting - the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are 2 completely different organizations with different rules and have little to do with each other. Sexism would be the same organization holding different rules for girls and boys.
The girls process is actually a lot better IMO if done right and if quotas reflect the number of girls going through so all get bids. It ensures girls meet all houses. The guys process doesn’t expose the guy to all the houses. A guy could easily just rush 1-2 houses and not get a bid. But I digress, sorry.
It’s interesting that you say that. I honestly don’t think that’s my children’s world in any real sense. (I wouldn’t have added that last qualification, except that my son is in the middle of an excruciatingly drawn-out process of getting engaged to a daughter of immigrants with an outlook that is very traditional in a non-Western culture. So there is an elaborate fiction being constructed of his proposing marriage to her, having first obtained her parents’ consent. The bride-to-be has been producer, director, and scriptwriter of the whole show.) Going back to middle school, it has been remarkably clear that at every stage girls were calling the shots, and the role of boys was to acquiesce or not. Young men may acquire some real agency by the time they hit 20, and when it comes to exclusivity and long-term commitment (not to mention actual marriage) getting their acquiescence is not necessarily easy. But none of the millennial women I know spends a lot of time waiting for him to call.
I’m not certain it was even really my world. I did ask women out – in retrospect, in most cases, after they had launched themselves at me like an RPG. I asked my future spouse out a number of times, and mostly she said “no.” Our serious relationship began when, two weeks after we had said goodbye expecting never to see one another again, she wrote me a letter saying she had ended her troubled previous relationship and wanted to see where our mutual attraction might lead, and proposing when and how we could spend time together. (By then we were living in different places.) And although I was the one who forced the marriage question, she had previously taken all the initiative in making certain we were in a permanent relationship.
I’m sure my father proposed to my mother in a traditional way . . . but as far as I can tell, reading between the lines of old letters, it was shortly after she told him that she didn’t feel good about having sex with him anymore unless she was certain they were going to be married in the near future.
One more note, of some collateral relevance to this point and to the larger issue of sorority parties. When I was in law school, for various reasons I had a number of friends who were leaders in the undergraduate lesbian community at that university, and I went to a number of their parties. They were great parties! There was drinking (etc.) and dancing and flirting and raucousness. Little or no frat-like grossness, but nothing like practicing for inviting the neighbors over to your suburban McMansion. Parties that confirmed the idea that women should be giving all the parties.