@twoinanddone: “They need journalism students who know the rules of basketball, announcers who know what they are talking about, cheerleaders who know the difference between offense and defense.”
Those students would have writing/journalism ECs, speech ECs, and cheerleading ECs.
Speculation here: but what about the Ivies avoiding students from school districts that they feel do grade inflation? It shouldn’t be a penalty for the high achieving student but I can bet that Ivies prefer some school districts over others. A lot of students increase SAT/ACT scores thru third party college prep programs, so high test scores may be less of a indicator of how well the school system prepares the student.
@friscotex, they can see class rank.
I had not thought of it this way, but I love this observation from @mwdad2018:
“I think back to the tour at Yale. I honestly can’t really see him being friends with or having a lot in common with the tour guide (as the prototypical Yale student). Same at Princeton. Same at Penn. Somehow that comes out in the app.”
Now, this may not be valid data point for your particular individual tour guide, but most schools we have visited bring all of the daily tour guides in—anywhere from 5-10 of them—and introduce who they are. There are schools you visit where none or almost none seem like your child, and others where many to most do. That may very well be a good thing to think about.
@twoinanddone You are right about slight imperfections not mattering. These schools are pining for kids who are interested and interesting. My higher stats kid is of the opinion that her miss of a perfect SAT by 20 points and choosing to NOT retake, and a strong but not perfect GPA played in her favor, not against her. Her ECs, essays, and recommendations all showed her as an intellectual kid who pursued her interests for the sake of learning, not a kid punching tickets for a top college. Slight imperfections in her stats actually boosted that impression, I suspect. Grade grubbing perfectionists who pursue fairly standard ECs are a dime a dozen in the pool of applicants for top colleges. My kid got in everyplace she applied, including some top colleges. I think “overpolishing” can be a problem. Being genuine and somewhat unique is valued.
Oh, and my kid definitely caught flak at school from another kid who thought they should have been accepted at a school my D got into. But this other kid didn’t know all of my D’s ECs and accomplishments outside of school. You can’t know everyone else’s full application details.
I agree with @intparent because that was DS’ experience as well. Decent grades, high (but not perfect) test scores, but the ECs and recommendations were what showed he was highly independent and doing his own learning outside school. Can’t comment on whether his essay helped or hurt; I didn’t like it (too stiff, no attempt to be approachable or likeable) but it was an accurate portrait of who he is so maybe that authenticity helped.
And like intparent’s DD, DS was accepted to a school where at least 8 other kids from his school applied, most of them with better GPAs and a few with better test scores. So I’m sure it appeared to them that it was a mystery why he’d been accepted over them, but that’s because he’s an introvert who hadn’t shared all the things he does outside school so they had no way to know the outside ECs and accomplishments which really were very unusual.
I also think his LORs were a deciding factor. His GC told us that he took extra time to write son’s LOR and made a point that DS was “better than his grades.” One teacher (whose LOR we saw when an employer showed it to us) said things like “you will want to clone this student” even though DS got a B in that class…
@profmom0814 Great post! If you have questions about Oberlin, feel free to PM me. My kid is a first year there. It’s fantastic.
All I can add is to focus on “fit” (which can certainly include prestige but not in vacuum.) Cast a wide enough net and hopefully your kid gets something they really like. We applied to 15 schools (knowing 4 of them were very unlikely). Of the remaining 11, D got in to 8 (with two of them as safeties so really 6 to choose from. His first choice, or maybe even first two choices were in the 3 declines out of 11. But the fit selection used to choose schools to even apply to was so strong that any of the rest would be great. Had some great options and, almost a yr in, he would tell you he made a great choice and thinks it should have been his 1st choice all along.
The deferral and ultimate rejection from a few was pretty brutal (primarily the waiting), and he was definitely upset, but it all worked out.
They’re more resilient than you think.
I have had the good fortune to speak with a member of both Harvard’s and Yale’s admissions committees. Here is what I learned. The most under-appreciated component of the application is the recommendation. As per Yale’s committee member, It is very difficult to gain admissions to any highly selective school without one recommendation that corroborates the strength and impact of the candidate. Elite college acceptances are not entirely a crapshoot as evidenced by the fact that some students are admitted broadly and some are not admitted at all. The students who do very well likely have a recommender who indicated that the applicant was an outlier…moved a class forward everytime he or she raised their hand in class, impacted an organization in a substantial and uncommon way, contributed to his or her community in an innovative, courageous, enduring and/or impactful manner. The mistake applicants appear to make is believing a slightly higher gpa or test score will strengthen their app. It won’t. Once a college knows the student is capable of academic success, these variables are set aside for what is really important…Admitting students who will be generous, interesting and impactful contributors to their campus community. High academic stats and a laundry list of extracurricular activities and awards is the norm. They are looking for the outliers. And outliers are allowed to have a couple B’s.
@madam ^^^excellent post
@socaldad2002 Thanks!
Maybe some kids are really good at playing to the teachers but a couple of recent Ivy admits at our school were just awful kids.
“The mistake applicants appear to make is believing a slightly higher gpa or test score will strengthen their app. It won’t.”
Today, that really doesn’t happen, most applicants to selective schools know that good scores are necessary but not sufficient for admission.
“Once a college knows the student is capable of academic success, these variables are set aside for what is really important…Admitting students who will be generous, interesting and impactful contributors to their campus community.”
That sounds good on a marketing brochure but the the biggest hook is recruited athletes for revenue generating sports, and their contribution to the college is financial. They do not run a service club or write for the paper, they go to class (good thing actually), practice, then back to class, and train year round. Some of them have their own dorms, not exactly engaging with the campus. And other athletes are not that much different, they also are devoted to their sport and don’t have much for anytime for much else.
And recall Harvard rescinded ten people’s admissions after discovering their vitriolic posts, they were interesting for sure, but not really in the right way.
And the justice dept is looking at discrimination at the ivies, so if they find that actually happens, that would really put a damper on the whole contributing to the community idea. BTW, a lot of people, of every race, think discrimination happens now anyway. They don’t need the justice dept to tell them that.
“Today, that really doesn’t happen, most applicants to selective schools know that good scores are necessary but not sufficient for admission.”
Many posts on CC from irate/upset students and parents would prove otherwise. Or those posts where someone wants to retake SAT/ACT tests despite being close to perfect already. We see both quite regularly.
Congratulations to all students on their admissions after running the gauntlet. All parents deserve grace in helping their students accept their results and move forward with their college careers.
However, the admissions professionals do not deserve a pass – at least until there is more transparency. (https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/06/politics/harvard-admissions-lawsuit/index.html). See also
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-uncomfortable-truth-about-affirmative-action-and-asian-americans.
Very useful posts by @intparent and @madam. I think both have a lot of wisdom and insight.
A few years back I created a thread about thinking about the admissions process from the perspective of the adcom, and in terms of what value an applicant brought to the table:
Those applicants who pursue their passions to a high level of achievement without regard to how it looks for admissions purposes, who raise the bar for others, and who move their communities forward are going to stand out and are going to offer value to an elite institution beyond the majority of applicants with good test scores and standard level outside interests and accomplishments.
Yes – but I will note that my kid did have test scores within spitting distance of perfect. The school has to be very confident that your kid is capable of doing the work at the level they require before they move on to look at those other areas.
Someone also mentioned fit – I also think that was a factor for my kid. Given her intellectual bent and desire for academic rigor (she told me she wanted her best shot at becoming a polymath in college!), she picked schools that matched that aim. She was very deliberate in those choices. And I think her applications showed it, and she fit the picture that ad coms at those colleges have of their students.
I hope this is true.
I agree that letters of Rec are key. When my S & D applied (2014) there were a handful of teachers (mostly AP) that everyone asked for LORs from. One particularly popular teacher told me he had 3 different letters that he modified based on the kid and that my kids got the top letter. We had the chance to see the letter a year or two later and, while it was highly laudatory, it could have applied to any number of kids. Yes it was “personalized” but … My D also asked another teacher who knew her well and was rarely asked for LORs. That letter, I am sure, was the stronger letter. Similarly, I’ve heard stories of teachers who ask students to be one of their recommenders. You can bet those letters will be strong. Think about it from the teacher’s standpoint: imagine being asked to write 30 or 40 LORs every September… so to echo @madam, choose your recommenders carefully. Also supply them with a resume to remind/refresh them about the things you have accomplished.
@PurpleTitan, very much enjoy your posts and insights and always make sure to read them when you comment in a thread.
Re your #10 post, how does USC compare to Cal and UCLA in terms of selectivity/stats/acceptance rate for undergraduate admission? USC’s acceptance rate is not at all comparable to Wisconsin’s, but I’m not sure if that’s what you were implying (?).