Thanks, @USCWolverine.
USC has raised their admissions standards tremendously. A top one percentile candidate has a shot there. Roughly equal to UMich OOS so probably 50/50. UW-Madison would be a likely for such a kid. Probably the only research U left that I consider a Near-Ivy to be a safety (at least a near safety) for such kids.
@gallentjill – Since you’re looking for a “reason” top kids don’t get into many top schools – here is one reason.
I’d say it’s the key reason, really.
Applying to top schools is no different than playing the lottery. When you see the sheer number of uber applicants from around the world vying for a finite (and not that big) number of spaces; when you consider that the Ivies “build a class” and need to include a huge percentage of children of extreme wealth/connections/privilege as part of that class, it becomes clear that this isn’t even close to a level playing field. It never was, and never was intended to be.
Thanks for fast reply, PT. It’s my understanding that USC’s acceptance rate has been essentially the same as Cal’s and UCLA’s for a long time now. IIRC, the last several years all three schools accepted in the neighborhood of 16% of their applicants. This year, USC only accepted 12.9%. Just crazy, IMO.
DD tells me that almost all of the “why him/her and not me” reactions were directed at the wealthy URM students, children of top execs, artists, and surgeons. There’s an African-American girl who has blond hair and green eyes, in addition to being wealthy, who got the “diversity letter” from Cornell (no legacy). Another boy who everyone thought was just a white boy, turned out to be both African-American and Native-American and got into one of the top LAC (also no legacy). His father and grandfather are both famous people in the Arts. A couple of very wealthy Hispanic students who look nothing like the immigrants we envision being helped by the diversity program. It’s hard for them see why these classmates should get the URM advantage.
So, you need to look a certain way, " like the immigrants we envision", to be considered of a certain race these days?? And how do you know that was the tipping factor in their admissions - and not being a development angle given wealth and famous relatives? Did you read their whole application?
The idea that you’re not really a minority unless you’re also poor - unless, in other words, you reinforce stereotypes that already exist about minorities - seems misguided to me. And having students in the mix who can shake up our preconceived notions of what it means to be black or Hispanic or Native American or Asian… isn’t that kind of the point?
Depends on what you consider “the point” to be.
Anyway, schools will decide what games they want to play to reach the goals they want to reach, and it’s up to each student to decide whether they want to engage in that or not.
Agreed, I could have phrased that better. Changing preconceived notions is beneficial but not “the point.”
@doschicos “So, you need to look a certain way, " like the immigrants we envision”, to be considered of a certain race these days??" – This here is a great example of PC-policing.
“And how do you know that was the tipping factor in their admissions - and not being a development angle given wealth and famous relatives? Did you read their whole application?” I don’t. We are all speculating.
There seems to be a lot of discontent this season from upper stats students. I don’t think their results are much different than students with mid-range and lower stats. Those students don’t get into all their colleges either and they’re gapped at many of the schools that do accept them. They deal with disappointment too. I’m not sure why people think higher stats students might be exempt from it.
The assumption that acceptance to an elite school is a “reward” for hard work and high stats is misguided. The assertion from these students that acceptance to only their match/safety schools means all their hard work was wasted says a lot about their mind set. Who’s telling them that having higher stats than a classmate makes them more deserving of acceptance at an elite school? Or that hard work and high stats are enough to entitle them to a place at one? Those things make them eligible for consideration. They’re not a guarantee of admission. Elite schools don’t have enough spots for all the high stats students, so many of them will be rejected. Why isn’t someone close to these students alerting them to the fact that there’s a greater chance that they’ll be among the ~70% who are rejected than among the ~30% who are accepted?
@Curiosa “The point” is the original intention of “diversity programs” – are they set up to help minorities who are economically disadvantaged or are they set up to help minorities who are wealthy?
Economically disadvantaged is different from racial diversity - both are important to some schools but definitely bring different diversity to a campus. Race is not a component in programs like Questbridge for example. Minorities add value to campuses that have nothing to do with SES. Schools are looking to bring many types of diversity to campus.
Be careful writing anything that smacks of race. It’s not allowed in anything but the race thread, even though it’s important to the discussion.
Wonder when the system is going to just break down. At some point, won’t parents, students and the schools themselves just want to have a point system? How long are we going to consider nationality/race, financial status, legacy, sports, extracurriculars and all the rest. Here’s an example, someone goes as a first gen, low income student to an Ivy. The premise here is that school is giving the student a boost so they can do great things in society ( and not need help for their kids). Ok, so say the student is a minority ( same thing, give access to minority students to better schools). Then the next time around, won’t the graduates children use the same benefit again. Repeat with legacy students and you get the point. The US is approaching the point where most students will be non-white in the very near future. We have lots of talented immigrants coming to the US and their children are also often 1st gen students so how does that get counted. Is it fair to the others who have no access to these “hooks”? Why are sports more important than all others in easing the acceptance process?
We are creating a society in which kids who are working really hard have little to no access to the best schools because someone decided that school should be “holistic, well rounded or what have you” The student aren’t really with the most competitive candidates but with the candidates who were competitive but also had a “hook” of some type.
I keep reading on these threads about the uncertainty of it all and the holistic nature and all the rest. But why aren’t people questioning this. Why is it fair for a middle class kid to carry 100K of debt, or a wealthy legacy to gain access, or a minority to keep reusing ethnicity? Or a sports kid to elbow out a scholar. Is this what we really want as a society?
In a perfect world, I’d assign each kid a number instead of a name and let them compete based on real scores and activities. Were you in Boy Scouts for three years ( great that’s 3 points), on the soccer team two years (2 points).
There are just not enough great schools today for the population who have the statistics to do the work there. This is a mismatch. Why don’t the top schools build some programs in the Mid West, South and West? Why are all the colleges on the coasts?
It seems like students are like lemmings, all are applying to the same schools, know there chances are random and yet do nothing to change the system.
@austinmshauri “Who’s telling them that having higher stats than a classmate makes them more deserving of acceptance at an elite school?” – Parents who struggled to find ways to encourage their kids to study harder? But please, let’s stop blaming the parents. As a matter of fact, back when the parents were going to college, it was true – if you work hard and get good grades, you get into elite colleges.
And saying that the students feel “entitled” to elite schools is misguided. How can they? They are intensely aware of the fact that they don’t make the decisions! That’s why they are so stressed. But you know what they are entitled to do? Complain! Which is what we see here on cc.
“If you worked hard and got good grades, you got into elite colleges”
That really wasn’t true when we were applying. Elite boarding schools funneled far more students to top schools than is true today. Women were still shunted off to separate campuses at most of the Ivies until the late 70s/early 80s ( and that is when I applied to college). Rose colored glasses.
@intparent Boy, you are old! 
And maybe it’s “rose colored glasses”, but acceptance rates at HYP definitely were not in the single digits.
^Plus there wasn’t the same kind of need based aid that exists today. If you were lower income, you often weren’t going to a 4 year college at all.
“Why don’t the top schools build some programs in the Mid West, South and West? Why are all the colleges on the coasts?
It seems like students are like lemmings, all are applying to the same schools”
I agree with the lemming part but there are wonderful schools in other geographic regions which provide a great education. If people stop focusing on rankings first, they’d discover them. Pick up a Fiske Guide and read it. It’s myopic to think that the great schools are only on the coasts.
“Who’s telling them that having higher stats than a classmate makes them more deserving of acceptance at an elite school? Or that hard work and high stats are enough to entitle them to a place at one?”
I don’t think many people - GCs, parents etc are saying that having better stats automatically means you’re more deserving at an elite school. The frustration does not come when someone with a 1450 gets in over someone with a 1500, it’s when someone with a 1200 or 1300 does, and those tend to be urms or athletes and that’s why these are volatile issues, esp the urm one. Schools that have Naviance will show this.
You also don’t want to send a message that hard work isn’t important.
Eh. If people don’t value diversity, then maybe stop applying to schools that make it a priority. That would free up space there for the kids who are only interested in schools with a diverse student body.
My kid’s not interested in schools with a dominant frat scene, or sports culture. She’s not spending a lot of time wishing that there were no schools like that. She’s just crossing those schools off her list. Simple as that.