Why is Duke, Columbia, and Penn underrated in these forums?

GoldAngealArea · April 30, 2011, 1:23pm

This is copy of a similar thread I created for Duke.

I’ve always thought these 3 universities are second to HYPSM in terms for reputation and selectivity. When I went through my college search, I compiled a bunch of lists and websites just for research sake. When I went to talk to my college counselors and what not, they always mentioned Duke with Harvard and Brown…

Why is it so underrated here? Did the lacrosse case 4 years ago touch a nerve or something?

Here’s a few information I’ve found about Duke. Aside from the fact it doesn’t have as much Nobel Prizes as HYPSM, everything seems to be great about it. I’m not saying it should be at HYPSM’s level. But I’m just asking why everyone here seems to hate it.

[2007</a> list of BB Summer Associate class by colleges | WallStreetOasis.com](<a href=“http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/2007-list-of-bb-summer-associate-class-by-colleges]2007”>2007 list of BB Summer Associate class by colleges | Wall Street Oasis)
Duke ranks above Yale on this one…

[Where</a> the Fortune 50 CEOs Went to College - TIME](<a href=“http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1227055,00.html]Where”>http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1227055,00.html)
Harvard’s count is 3 here…Duke is 2.
Stanford and Yale are 1.

[What’s</a> Your College Degree Worth? - Businessweek](<a href=“Businessweek - Bloomberg”>Businessweek - Bloomberg)
Duke ranks in the top 10 for Payscale

[America’s</a> Best Universities for 2009](<a href=“The Google College Rankings”>America’s Best Universities for 2009)
These are Google Rankings on College…I don’t know what basis, but they showed up. And Duke is 7th. Above Yale and Princeton!

<a href=“http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/p...ege_092503.pdf[/url]”>http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/p...ege_092503.pdf</a>
Wall Street Journal…Duke ranks right after HYPSM

[The-Billionaire-Universities:</a> Personal Finance News from Yahoo! Finance](<a href=“http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/105175/The-Billionaire-Universities]The-Billionaire-Universities:”>http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/105175/The-Billionaire-Universities)
Duke ranks 11th on number of billionaires produced. Isn’t that good considering its a new university?

[Top</a> 100 Universities in USA](<a href=“http://www.happyschoolsblog.com/top-100-universities-in-usa/]Top”>http://www.happyschoolsblog.com/top-100-universities-in-usa/)
Duke ranks 10th in these rankings

[Gawker</a> — Today’s gossip is tomorrow’s news](<a href=“http://gawker.com/5373585/ivy-leaguers-now-networking-with-their-peon-bush+league-bretheren]Gawker”>http://gawker.com/5373585/ivy-leaguers-now-networking-with-their-peon-bush+league-bretheren)
[Invest</a> Like the Ivy League? - CXO Advisory](<a href=“http://www.cxoadvisory.com/investing-expertise/invest-like-the-ivy-league/]Invest”>Invest Like the Ivy League? - CXO Advisory)

<a href=“http://mup.asu.edu/research2009.pdf[/url]”>http://mup.asu.edu/research2009.pdf</a>
Duke is ranked 6th. Columbia (not Harvard) is 1.

^They couldn’t even get the real Ivy League down…wow.

[eSiteful</a> Case Study : Rice University](<a href=“http://www.esiteful.com/work/case.study/government.np/rice.aspx]eSiteful”>http://www.esiteful.com/work/case.study/government.np/rice.aspx)

[Invest</a> Like the Ivy League? - CXO Advisory](<a href=“http://www.cxoadvisory.com/investing-expertise/invest-like-the-ivy-league/]Invest”>Invest Like the Ivy League? - CXO Advisory)

Even Wikipedia says the Ivy League generally includes MIT and Stanford. Duke University and UChicago also.

I just don’t get why someone hates a university so much…I mean that’s like being disrespectful to people who go to Duke…wouldn’t you get defensive if someone hurts your alma mater like that?
I just wanted to point that out…out of my entire experience in gathering data and searching for colleges, I found many examples of Duke treated very elitely…except on these boards!
Same case for Columbia and Penn!

GoldAngealArea · April 30, 2011, 1:29pm

Columbia is not only very old and super selective…but it also has more Nobel Laurettes than YPSM…yet its so underrated and considered below “HYPSM”. I just don’t understand your guys’s criteria.

How could you think Berkeley, UMich, and UVA are at the same level as Duke, Columbia, and Penn and argue that Duke, Columbia, and Penn are leagues behind Stanford, Harvard, and Yale?

nttATL · April 30, 2011, 1:32pm

I think Duke’s case is due to the perception of it being a “Southern” school and therefore cannot be as elite as schools in more “prestigious” regions of the country such as the Northeast.

Similar to the perception of Southerners being dumber and more backward than the rest of the country.

phantasmagoric · April 30, 2011, 1:44pm

I think it’s because some (certainly not all, or even most) Duke supporters use tactics that are often rude, abrasive, or mean, more so than even the most rabid supporters of other universities. Often these individuals will pop into threads where Duke is irrelevant just to proclaim how Duke is better. Some Duke supporters–even some of those who don’t use mean tactics–attempt to claim *superiority *, not just equality, to one or more of HYPSM. I’ve watched this for years (longer than my join date will indicate).

Again, this applies only to a subset of the Duke-affiliated people, but that subset is large enough to turn a lot of people against Duke.

nttATL, that logic doesn’t make much sense–why is Stanford considered on par with HYP even though there’s a stigma attached to California (“full of fruits and nuts” and “dumb surfer guys” and “illegal immigrants”)?

thsfan345 · April 30, 2011, 1:46pm

I think they are a little underrated, Columbia in particular–however, they aren’t to the level you’re describing. I think on CC there’s a second tier after HYPSM (and Caltech) of Duke, Columbia, UChicago, UPenn and Brown. All are amazing schools, and all are very strong and well rounded.

The thing is, for whatever reason, those schools don’t have as large of a “fanbase” as other schools. The HYPSMers tout those schools as exalted institutes of learning above all temporal concerns, and god knows UC Berkeley has more than its share of defenders. Michigan too. So don’t worry yourself too much about it. You’ll receive an excellent education at any of these schools.

edit: I forgot Duke’s fanbase, so see phantasmagoric’s comment

jengajenga117 · April 30, 2011, 1:47pm

I love Penn. This forum is just this way. As long as you believe that the schools are good, then all is well.

1789 · April 30, 2011, 1:49pm

Generally speaking the best and the brightest are admitted to and have gone to HYPSM over a sustained period of time. There are of course exceptions. For the best and the brightest Duke, Columbia and Penn are relative safety schools. Give these schools another 100 years or so and they may be able change perceptions, but it will take time.

phantasmagoric · April 30, 2011, 2:31pm

^ I’ve wondered whether such will happen with time. But that totally depends on whether there’s a ceiling for what money can buy, since prestige and financial assets are extremely correlated. In another 10 years, HYPS are going to have unbelievably huge endowments (even assuming a conservative 10-year annualized return of 10% would put H’s endowment at over $70 billion), and the schools a “notch below” (Duke, Columbia, etc.) are going to have endowments the size of YPS today. So the question is, what can’t money buy? HYPS will surely be completely free to attend in another 10 years. They’ll be paying professors absurd salaries to attract the best. They will be doing intense reconstruction to have the very best facilities. So it seems that no matter how much larger these “notch-below” schools’ endowments get, HYPS will always have much larger endowments, which will set the pecking order for things that determine prestige (faculty, facilities, even selectivity, which will certainly increase if HYPS become free to attend and tons more students apply).

iamanapp · April 30, 2011, 2:32pm

I chose Columbia over Stanford and MIT. After researching for a while, it was easy to see that Columbia does just as well as Stanford and beats MIT in the line of work I’m interested in. Others might choose differently, for sure. But, for me, Columbia is home. And a very prestigious home at that. :)

tk21769 · April 30, 2011, 2:42pm

The question is based on a premise that you have not demonstrated to be true.
Why do you think these 3 schools are underrated in these forums? Underrated compared to what?

In the US News rankings, all three are in the top 10. So there is not much room for them to go up. I have not noticed too many arguments that US News got it wildly wrong in ranking them as it did.

phantasmagoric · April 30, 2011, 2:52pm

^ well, ranking Columbia above Stanford is kind of off…

1789 · April 30, 2011, 2:55pm

Of the three. I think Columbia has the best opportunity to make the jump over the long run. It has top business, law, medical schools and other graduate schools and is located in New York City. This should also help with fundraising.

Morningside Heights is a more desirable place to live than it was 10 or 20 years ago, which at the time was a major disadvantage for the university in attracting top students.

Columbia seems to have the advantage over Brown, Dartmouth, Duke and definitely over Penn and Cornell. You can not underestimate location and the opportunities for learning outside of the classroom in attracting the best and the brightest.

45_Percenter · April 30, 2011, 4:14pm

So does Penn. Penn and Columbia are quite comparable academically, and are equally well positioned to “make the jump,” if there is a jump to be made.

And in terms of Columbia’s location in NYC being a factor, Stanford, Yale, and Princeton have all proven that a school doesn’t need to be in the middle of a large city to be at the pinnacle of academia.

GoldAngealArea · April 30, 2011, 4:22pm

Have you guys even read my OP?

Why? They only thing Columbia lacks against Stanford is its EA policy and a lower endowment. What else?

To the above 2 posters:
Duke Columbia and Penn are all so similar! Why would you still continue to split hairs? It doesn’t make sense…

Alexandre · April 30, 2011, 4:29pm

How are Columbia, Duke and Penn underrated on CC? Virtually every poster here rates them one notch below HYP, MIT and Stanford. The same goes for only a select few other universities such as Brown, Cal, Cornell and Northwestern and a handful of others.

45_Percenter · April 30, 2011, 4:31pm

That was the point I was trying to make. :)

iamanapp · April 30, 2011, 4:50pm

Duke and Columbia are much better than UPenn CAS and its Engineering School. Wharton, however, is top-notch.

I don’t think I know anyone who’s attending UPenn CAS or SEAS, who had another good option. It’s often the last resort for most top students.

mrunderdog · April 30, 2011, 6:39pm

Columbia and Penn are not underrated on CC, however I do agree that for some reason Duke is. HYPS deserve there own recognition, but I don’t believe MIT does. MIT imo is the most overrated college on this forum.

@imanapp: I’m turning down UChicago, JHU, Cornell (Human Ecology), Duke, NYU and a few others for UPenn CAS.
Duke was my second last option lol, with NYU being my last.

I would also like to point out

Penn Pre-med CAS >>>>>>>>>>>> Columbia and Duke

Penn Pre-law CAS >>> Columbia and Duke

Penn Economics CAS = Columbia College(Advantage with historical Wall Street Connection however, but Penn does almost as well in this regard) >>>>>>>>Duke

Duke Engineering >> Penn SEAS = Columbia SEAS

Penn Business is obviously at a whole another level compared to Columbia/Duke

In general and in terms of prestige, UPenn = Columbia, however every other Ivy school and Top School comes in second to HYPS

Penn/Columbia/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell are the last resort for top students who weren’t able to get into HYPS.

joso2015 · May 1, 2011, 11:48am

“For the best and the brightest Duke, Columbia and Penn are relative safety schools”

“Penn/Columbia/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell are the last resort for top students who weren’t able to get into HYPS.”

Are these jokes…? Columbia was more selective this year than every single school besides Harvard. Look at the things Columbia boasts: More Nobel and Pulitzer prizes than any other school; 9 supreme court justices, 5 founding fathers. Look at all the fantastic research, inventions, and people that have come from Columbia. The laser, FM radio. It was the first place in America where the atom was split. The manhattan project was begun there. Look at the all-star faculty and alumni. Do some research on the school, compare it to other top schools, and see for yourself. I think it’s ridiculous that people rate it “second-tier.” In my opinion, I rate it as equal to HYPSM. Cite some facts and give a sound argument as to why not, then we can talk. I chose Columbia over Harvard. I don’t think either is greater than the other; it was a matter of personal choice.

cptofthehouse · May 1, 2011, 11:51am

I don’t see those schools underrated here. But if they are, it’s simply because the batch of people who have posted on CC are not as into those schools as others. Columbia certainly does not go unnoticed in terms of applicants… This year, it’s selectivity was only a notch below Harvard. All 3 schools are highly rated and desired.

Why is Duke, Columbia, and Penn underrated in these forums?

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