Whenever I see an article like this I check the LinkedIn profiles of the people being profiled and I am rarely happily surprised.
What has she been doing with that understanding? According to her LinkedIn profile she received a BA from Emmanuel College, a private college in MA, then an MA in international affairs from the New School. She’s currently working as the founder/project manager at a nonprofit. Being the snoop I am I checked her salary on the IRS nonprofit website. $4,728 for 20 hrs/wk. as of the latest filing on record.
Everyone wants a job they love but that’s not always an option. Become an artisanal soapmaker or start a nonprofit if that’s what will feed your soul but then don’t complain that you can’t pay back the loans you agreed to repay. Recently my daughter, who’s under-challenged at work told me she hates her job. I responded. “Everyone hates their first job.” A bit of hyperbole, but for most kids it’s a shock to go from working on something that interests you on a schedule that’s largely under your control to sitting in an office being told what to do all day. Her response was “Actually, you’re right. All my friends hate their jobs.”
The kids I feel for are the ones who took out what should have been a reasonable amount in loans then had a life event that took them off track. The ones with disabled kids or big medical bills or other unforeseen circumstances that make repayment impossible.
No disagreement or agreement on necessities of any of the underlying issues…
Just talking about the economic facts of the past which may have dictated spending.
I have no first hand info besides a few personal friendships around robust alumni networks in Germany. It seemed less of an organized, deeply connected and active part of the experience. But this is only from two colleagues and they attended school over 20 years ago. It could be 100 percent different. They described their collegiate experiences more akin to a polytechnic.
Many European countries make college free for students that meet objective merit criteria. That will not work in the USA because objective merit varies significantly by demographic group.
@hebegebe: That’s only because the elite colleges define it that way. That doesn’t have to be the case, as many other countries have shown.
@Rivet2000: Yep. Or to put it baldly, those schemes may not work here because people with money and power do not want them to work here.
@Sue22: I agree. There are many ways to understand the world:
The internet and free online courses: free; no debt required.
Libraries: free; no debt required.
Learning, meeting people, and understanding the world through volunteering, meetups, free lectures, various free events (I know many cities startup incubator organizations that have that all sorts of free events): free; no debt required.
Just an observation and I don’t have the answers…but frankly had I been tracked at an early age, I would have been one of those excluded from college (poor HS student who didn’t really care about school - back then it was all about beer, sports and girls). But then I went to college, lit a fire under my butt and got serious. Graduated Magna Cum Laude, and albeit in a different industry, own a successful business, have employed people, pay a lot of taxes, etc. Guess I would have fallen through the cracks in Germany.
But the difference is that in Germany you should have been aware that you were being tracked, and that awareness may have affected your performance in earlier years.
@rickle1: “Just an observation and I don’t have the answers…but frankly had I been tracked at an early age, I would have been one of those excluded from college (poor HS student who didn’t really care about school - back then it was all about beer, sports and girls). But then I went to college, lit a fire under my butt and got serious. Graduated Magna Cum Laude, and albeit in a different industry, own a successful business, have employed people, pay a lot of taxes, etc. Guess I would have fallen through the cracks in Germany.”
I don’t know why you’d say that when I mentioned above that in Germany now, there are multiple pathways for nontraditional students to go to uni. Unless you think the fire couldn’t have been lit unless you went to college.
Also, in countries like Germany, high-paid professionals like software engineers often don’t go to college and learn their skills through an apprenticeship. Shopify founder and billionaire Tobias Lutke doesn’t have a college degree and started as an apprentice.
Why should college debt be treated unlike any other debt from a debtor responsibility perspective? You signed for it, you pay for it. Maybe if the lenders made accessing funds more difficult, the price of education would decrease (like housing) as fewer would be able to afford. Sort of reverse the cycle we’ve been in for along time.
On the issue of who should go to college, I do think far too many go to simply go. It’s the default. In my own family I have a niece and nephew who graduated with no plan, no ideas of what they wanted to do, useful network built and, of course, no employment. I don’t want to say their college was a waste because there is value in simply getting an education but their outcomes were underwhelming and ultimately led to the same sort of jobs they would have had without a college degree (One was even a double major). Fortunately they both have figured some things out, several years removed, and have gone back to school with a purpose. Nephew got a nursing degree at 30 and niece is in a graduate CS program. Both had to take a bunch of prereqs to qualify for their programs so they were essentially doing a reset.
An apprenticeship program is a great idea. I also like the idea of a service program, military or social program, for those who aren’t ready for school.
I think we bear a lot of responsibility as parents. WE NEED to assure we are giving our children good information. I think this should carry over to relatives, etc.
I know my 17 year old starting college in the fall needs some guidance. It’s difficult for many of them to have a real clue about a career or the exact direction to go. That’s our job to help them.
I think that’s where many students with high student debt gave gotten into trouble. They have had no real guidance and probably just did what they thought was expected of them, what they saw their friends doing.
I know I didn’t get myself straightened out until my mid 20s. I wish someone had held my hand more.
But the difference is that in Germany you should have been aware that you were being tracked, and that awareness may have affected your performance in earlier years.
If only this were true…there is something about the teenage mind (for many) that no amount of explanation of consequences makes a difference. AKA frontal lobe maturation.
USA = chances and opportunity rather than tracking from a young age. We are NOT the rest of the world. Thank God.
Although I will say NYU is on to something with giving doctors (I believe those who go into family practice rather than the high paying specialties with big salaries) free medical school. I believe we are going to have to do this if we want providers. Just this winter, in my area, we have a shortage of doctors for sick visits during flu season. Urgent care waits have been 2-3 hours. I couldn’t get sick visits at my practice. It was explained to me that many doctors have retired or left leaving not enough providers. This is in an area with very strong medical and medical colleges.
To take out debt for school is an interesting topic. Depending on the kid, the course of study, the family resources, the economy you could make a good argument for or against (although there’s debt and then there’s DEBT - hard to justify the big DEBT when it’s just not necessary as there are many great schools out there that don’t require that).
Was just discussing college with a family friend who has 2.5 college age kids and not a lot of income. Oldest dropped out of college after 3 semesters, working retail and is finally taking courses again (but not really sure why). Middle kid is a great student and focused and in a college honors program at a great state U. Third kid is a HS junior and wants to go (just to go). His mom keeps telling me he only wants to go because his friends will and he wants to hang out. He doesn’t like school, hates studying, etc. She’s asked him, “why do you want to go to college if you hate school?” He has no good answer. They have very little money. Seems wasteful to pay for this now (in a yr). A loan could easily turn into a problem here. Maybe let him work for a few years and readjust. Interesting to note that mom didn’t go to college and dad has a degree / certificate from a tech school.
I think a lot of this boils down to family experience and expectation. Frankly, we were raised with the expectation of going to college and “getting a good education”. That was drilled into our heads at an early age. Took a small loan because parent couldn’t afford much - maybe that lit the fire . Big problem occurs with that predisposition and a kid who isn’t on board. Why do it, but more so, why borrow to do it? Recipe for disaster.
@Empireapple:
"USA = chances and opportunity rather than tracking from a young age. "
Actually, in many school districts in the US, there is indeed tracking, though many don’t call it that because many Americans want to think that they are special.
Also, in countries like Germany, there are plenty of opportunities these days to go to uni later on regardless of what track you started on (as I’ve mentioned above).
@rickle1: “Big problem occurs with that predisposition and a kid who isn’t on board. Why do it, but more so, why borrow to do it? Recipe for disaster.”
Agree with this. Because of the massive costs, higher ed in the US has to be thought of as an investment. Parents almost have to be like a VC evaluating if a startup (a kid) is worth the investment. But not many people think that way.
Purpletitan our tracking is nothing like some other countries. Even the lowest student can still turn it around. Someone I know just hired (within the past year) an engineer who had dropped out of high school, worked, then went to CC and finally finishing at a 4 year school with an Engineering degree. The person hiring chose this candidate over Engineers from top schools who had long histories of accomplishments and accolades. He felt this candidate had the work ethic, drive, and people skills to be an asset to the group. The chosen candidate is working out splendidly!
