Was it based on a particular school?
Regarding Pitt: they do give merit to high stat kids. (The stats required seem to get higher every year though.) Here’s a good online tour from a sports website (as a sports website, it starts with sports facilities, but it then goes to campus and does a good tour.) http://csnbbs.com/thread-564078.html
Pitt gives outstanding merit but you have to apply very very early. The school on the CNN special was Indiana but there may have been some others as well.
@ClarinetDad16 , PAYING FOR THE PARTY was supposedly based on Indiana U in Bloomington. I read the book - and attended IU-B two decades ago, and have family members there now - and yes, it really, really sounds like Indiana.
However, not even all of IU is even like the dorm described in the book. It’s a huge place, and the dorm in the book is one of many, and each dorm is it’s own community with it’s own pros, cons, and quirks.
I would say any kind of kid could fit in at IU if they have this ONE quality - they’re okay solving bureaucratic problems on their own initiative and are proactive about doing so.
There are kids in Indiana, though, who I really believe went/go/want to go there just because of the party and sports rep.
Many natives complain that IU loves OOS money too much… The complaints have been more vocal in recent years as the OOS population goes up and up… but even two decades ago, there was a sizable contingent from the East Coast and from Chicago and it’s 'burbs.
Reading about how competitive some of the Northeast schools are, I can see why NE kids would flock to Indiana.
Oh, and Business. (When I was there, very few u/g business students - mostly MBAs.)
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@mom2collegekids "it could be argued that their need based aid has a merit component."
UVa aid is primarily need based , although the university has toyed recently with adding merit . http://www.edcentral.org/uva-feels-pressure-become-active-merit-aid-arms-race/
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I think you misunderstood me. I know that UVA (and UNC) primarily give need based aid (and little merit). My point was that since those schools accept few OOS, to get accepted, the OOS student has to be more than just an average student…likely the OOS student has to either be an athlete or a high stats student. So, it could be argued that the need-based aid has a merit component. The average OOS applicant probably doesn’t get accepted.
Lots of OOS students get accepted to UVa. UVa gets far more OOS applicants than IS. The yield rate is of course lower for OOS students than IS. If you are saying that " the need -based aid has a merit component. " you could make that argument then in regard to any selective school that offers primarily need based aid.
UVa admissions is quite open about the fact that OOS admission is much more competitive than IS, as evidenced by their 24% and 44% acceptance rates. Thus, OOS students receiving need-based FA from UVa is similar to another school (where OOS and IS rates are similar) offering merit aid to stronger students. UNC is around 80% IS, so the OOS/IS disparity is even larger there.
Then why don’t they give it to high achiever students irrespective of family income?
Because they’re under pressure to increase their socioeconomic diversity.
http://wjla.com/news/local/uva-one-of-most-socio-economically-diverse-schools-88582
Then they should increase the number of poor VIRGINIANS
Again, UVa gets many more OOS applicants than IS. I am rounding but something like 20000 OOS to 10000 IS. Most of the instate kids that apply are the top students in their respective schools, with very good GPA’s, SAT’ s, EC’ s and recommendations. Otherwise, most don’t bother to apply. OOS is capped at 1/3 the student population. If you have 20000 OOS students applying, a 20 something acceptance rate is not unusual. Many OOS kids are still being accepted. And are getting aid based on need. The reality is that UVa does have lots of wealthy and upper middle class students and they created ACCESS UVa to address that.
@mom2collegekids wrote, “The average OOS applicant probably doesn’t get accepted.”
Don’t your numbers of 200 accepted (roughly) out of 20,000 (roughly) support that? Granted you followed up with the yield/lower statement, but …
@Waiting2exhale I don’t know where you are getting 200 from? UVa has space for about 1100 or 1200 students that are not Virginians in any entering class. They get about 20000 applications from non Virginians. Even if they are only accepting less than 30 percent of them, they are still accepting thousands of non Virginians.
Doing math in english, sevmom. Double checked with a calculator, and yes, that leaves room for thousands. My mental math gave me those numbers.
My experience in the recruiting arena in a STEM field never even considered the quality of the undergrad population. It was all about 1) start-up funding provided from the uni; 2) equipment resources in the department; and 3) the collaborative opportunities with other faculty. This reflects the importance of research over teaching at universities.
(sorry if this was already hashed out in the thread…haven’t read it all yet)
and in response…
Agree. States need intellectual/human capital to maintain/grow their economies. From a state policy perspective, it makes sense to use merit aid to attract OOS intellectual talent. Some of those kids will stay in state after graduation and (in theory) help grow the state economy. It seems to me the merit money given to OOS students is an investment.
@sevmom Yes, I would make that claim. And, it could be argued that at that level it’s smart to do it that way. Instead of giving merit to all high stats kids, only give it to those with need.
As for the point that “lots of OOS students get accepted to UVA,” and more importantly, “UVA gets far more OOS applicants than instate,” but the acceptance rate is much lower. That just suggests that those that have been selected to be accepted must have some hook or high stats, so worthy of aid (be it need-based).
I think that OOS publics that are mostly only accepting high stats OOS students are simply compensating for the lowish scores instate students they have to accept because GPA is often more highly considered for instate.
I think this part of the discussion is essentially going in circles because it is redefining what we have traditionally called merit awards (based on accomplishments regardless of need) and need based awards (based on need regardless of merit, once you have been accepted to that school). That last part is important because it is where the discussion gets muddled.
Of course to get into Harvard you must have great academic and other accomplishments, and so in that sense there is a merit component. But that isn’t what the FA office is looking at once they get the case for evaluation, and why Harvard et. al. say they don’t do merit awards. A true merit scholarship that is awarded after acceptance is the opposite. Examples are WUSTL, Tulane, Miami, and many many others that have merit scholarships that require separate applications and are awarded between the time the student was accepted and the May 1 deadline for the student to decide. The office awarding it looks at accomplishments only and not need, if we are to stay within traditional definitions. Certainly that student might still get need based aid even if they win a partial merit scholarship.
So let’s not get too sidetracked by letting type one spill over to the other. If the school is taking need into account in the awarding of a competitive scholarship, then it is still a need based scholarship. I suppose I can imagine a hybrid, but I am unaware of such a beast. One reason would be what if the family hits it rich before sophomore year? Then what do you do when you have awarded a merit scholarship based on need? By keeping them separate, changes in circumstances are easily accounted for.
Yes, need based and merit based awards are different. UVa currently operates on a more need based model . OOS kids are eligible for need based aid, although many of them could be full pay . UVa does have a lower level of Pell eligible students than many other schools. The OOS kids do have higher average SAT’s than the IS students but there are plenty of IS students that have comparable SAT numbers to the average OOS kid . The school has to afford the opportunity to attend to kids from all over the state, not just the highest SAT type kids that are concentrated in schools like TJHSST . So, of course, the SAT scores of the instate kids are going to be more varied. With about 20,000 OOS applications a year from OOS students for only about 1100 or 1200 OOS/international spots, the school can pick the very best students to offer admission to , and that will include high SAT’s. Just like most of the very selective schools.
I live in VA and my D16 applied to all OOS publics and one private. She is not a top student, is not going to receive merit money, and does not qualify for need-based aid. I don’t feel like I’m cheating anyone out of their state tax dollars if I shell out $45K to send her OOS.
She had no chance of getting into UVA, W&M, or VA Tech (comparing her stats to other accepted students from her competitive HS), but she was accepted by UMN and Indiana (so far). She would rather go OOS than go to certain Virginia schools and I don’t really blame her.