As the parent of a budding professional musician, the data points important for my son are probably far different than those for the pre-med, or accounting major.
There are some great OOS Public options ranked high for my own list. Some prestige privates that fall to the wayside when the numbers are crunched (a few make the cut) and a single In-State public in the hunt.
To me outcomes are very important. Opportunities are important. Locations are important. Faculty is hugely important. And net cost can be a deal breaker…
Bottom line OOS publics offer intriguing options, some at solid values.
Except, of course, that NONE of the service academies are state schools. That list is one of the most random things I’ve ever seen. There may be useful information in there, but the “rankings” part is worthless. Better to list them alphabetically.
@ClarinetDad16, as you rightly point out, data points useful to one family will be irrelevant to another. For top-stats students coming in with AP credits, etc., for example,“outcomes” having to do with average graduation rates aren’t really relevant either, and yet that seems to be a particular concern of yours for some reason.
I’m quite familiar with the College Solution website, @ClarinetDad16, and I own the book. I understand that graduation rates can be an important data point, but they can also be pretty much irrelevant for certain categories of students.
My point is that plenty of families DO know what the graduation rate is of a particular school, and–after looking into WHY so many students fail to graduate in four years (cost, academic preparedness, co-ops)–determine the risk isn’t particularly great for their student.
There’s a big difference when you’re comparing graduation rates for CA state schools, where it can be tough for even tippy-top students to get out in four years due to impacted majors, etc., and schools in the Deep South, where the students who aren’t graduating may have been ill-prepared for college level work or are unable to afford four years of uninterrupted education.
As O’Shaunessy herself says, when assessing a grad rate that raises an eyebrow, “I’d want to know who is graduating in four years to assess my own child’s chances of being in that group.”
Again, 4-year and graduation rates are an important data point UNLESS it isn’t relevant to YOUR particular student. That’s all I’m saying.
Here is another list -this one details highest 4 year graduation rates for public schools. I do think that although each kid is individual and will have a different outcome based on their personal motivation and opportunities , it doesn’t hurt to look at average rates. I would be hesitant if a rate was particularly low (either freshman retention rate or four year, 6 year graduation rates). http://time.com/money/3748117/public-colleges-fastest-graduation-rates/
Since I am in Virginia, I was most curious about looking at Virginia schools. The three top rated public national schools , according to US News, in Virginia , all have freshman retention rates over 90% (UVa 97%, W & M 96%, Virginia Tech 92%). 6 year graduation rates: UVa 94%, W & M 90%, VT 83%. This kind of info may or may not be all that useful , but the data with these kind of things can be interesting.
@LucieTheLakie - by impacted majors you mean students cannot get the classes they need when they want to take them?
There are schools with highly qualified students at highly regarded public schools that systematically take longer to graduate.
Some schools in recent years have embarked with initiatives to tackle the 4-year graduation rates head on. For example the Temple Fly in 4 program provides guidance from advisors, and classes when the kids need them. Both sides commit and if the student doesn’t finish degree on time temple pays for the remaining course work.
Why is this important?
limits student loan debt
lowers education costs
enter the professional workforce sooner
I advise many kids what are right fit schools for them to consider. I raise the red flag on schools with low retention and graduation rates. We make plans and G-d laughs. Better to go in with open eyes.
@ClarinetDad16, by ‘impacted majors’ I mean they may not be able to get into their first choice major and then they have to come up with a Plan B that may require different prerequisites, leading to extra semesters, or they may get into their major but not be able to get the classes they need to graduate in four years. That was a fear we had with our state flagship, based on reports we got from students in the engineering college there.
In our case, we saw the flowchart for our kid’s major at the school offering him big merit $, and we all agreed it could be done in four years, but it also meant he didn’t have any room to screw up. That’s the risk we took because the scholarships made it worth our while and the GPA requirements to maintain the scholarships were pretty liberal.
Every family has to weigh the options and determine how much risk they’re prepared to undertake. We’re not big risk-takers and fortunately our kid is even more conservative in that regard than we are!
Majors are given impacted status to avoid impacted classes. Students who attend any college where their desired major(s) are impacted[li], and they have not been directly admitted to the major, need to consider backup plans. This is not unique to California public universities. Impacted classes appears to be a heavily overstated problem at four year schools (though it can be a problem at open admission community colleges), probably because students like to find something to blame when their reasons for late graduation are really something else (e.g. not wanting to take the 8am section of the class that is open).[/li]
Four year graduation rates at UCs have been rising over time, probably due to rising qualifications of entering students. Stronger students are less likely to need remedial courses and more likely to be able to handle full course loads.
[*] Meaning that entrance to the major is gated by a secondary admission process that requires a higher GPA than 2.0, or grades higher than C, or competitive application for a limited number of spots.
“not wanting to take the 8am section” Or not wanting to take as many classes per semester as they should to keep on track. Or not being proactive enough with making sure they get the classes they need. I was thankful both of my kids graduated in 4 years in engineering. I did not want to pay one more penny for college than I had to!
"how can you be tied with TCNJ and Rutgers when , in fact TCNJ is a stronger academic school that Rutgers by a wide margin.:
False. For one RU offers many majors not even available at TCNJ. Few outside 100 miles from TCNJ have ever heard of TCNJ. RU is a national/international school.
Don’t really understand the Rutgers hate on CC. Rutgers is #28 among publics in US News, which is higher than about 30 other states’ flagships, including IUB, UDel, UMass, Iowa, all SUNYs, Colorado, Alabama, and Mizzou. Only two states in the northeast have higher ranked publics: PA (PSU) and CT (UConn).
I don’t get it either. It’s almost an “anywhere but Rutgers” thing with some people and the bashing gets tiresome I just don’t get why it’s impossible to support a school you may think highly of while at the same time acknowledging the strengths of other schools. Rutgers is a well ranked national university. It certainly must have lots of good things about it.
You would know better than I, @ucbalumnus. I’ve been surprised how many CA families pass on UCs, though, because they’re worried their kid won’t graduate in four years. I have no idea if their concerns are reasonable; I was just trying to give an example of the types of schools that might give a parent some pause.
When I went to college ages ago, the four year graduation rate was under 40% (now around 70% or more). I had no trouble graduating in 8 semesters of school. I did have AP credit going in, but I still took more than the 120 credit units needed to graduate (used the AP credit to choose more advanced courses and electives instead of lower level courses).
What I did observe back then was that many students were voluntarily taking light loads (e.g. 12-13 credit units instead of the 15 credit units that one should average to graduate in 8 semesters). Some were working their way through college (tuition is much lower then, and high school graduates could earn enough to pay their living costs and tuition), while others apparently either had trouble with full course loads or wanted more time for other activities (and their parents probably did not object as much due to the lower cost then). Note that the school was less selective then; back then more than half of frosh needed to take a remedial English composition course (now, under 10% need to), which probably also affected on-time graduation rates at the time.
Many engineering degrees require more than 120 credits to graduate though. The program one son was in required 133 credits to graduate. I think a student/parent would need to look at particular schools and programs to see what is currently required. That way you would know what is expected going in.
There is a great benefit from living in a different part of the country for a while! Students who grew up only living in one state, and then go to school in that state, have a limited life experience base. Going somewhere different opens up new perspectives and experiences that can be a valuable part of the “college experience.” This can be valuable if they need to move for some reason down the road. They know they can live elsewhere and be happy. They’ve already done it once.
That is an average of 16.625 credits per semester, which is not excessive, although engineering credits tend to have a higher average workload than (for example) business credits. But it does require a reasonably disciplined student to handle 16-17 credits per semester. However, it is probably less work now than it used to be, since it is less work to check something on the course web site than to go to campus and look for the paper or book that contains the needed information.
Some states are large and quite different from one area to another. There are some kids going farther away from where they grew up , even though they have stayed instate, than many kids going OOS. . Most kids still go to school within a couple hundred miles from home. Seeing another part of the country is great. Going to college OOS is not the only way to do so though.